how to get that guitar tone

[ross g]

it's funny yah know? You might be able to count on two hands the amount of companies making tube power amps...but hell everyone and their brother throws a 12ax7 in there stuff...now true, one 12ax7 is not really going to provide that tone, you need at least two, but why would the companies not use a power tube for the myth? I mean if you're going after that uninformed crowd than bigger would be better, also they could use it to inflate the price...

because you are dealing with line level signals at that point, power tubes are not for that, right? they have specific input and output, not something for a processing function...and i think economics play into it, i don't know enough specific info to even comment on 1 vs. 2, i know what you are saying: 1 tube to overdrive into tube 2, but probably a price vs. usefull outcome ratio

part of tube distortion is the result of tube pre-amps having more than one tube and the even and odd harmonics...power amps in guitar amps, tvs, stereos, ect generally have no controls of any kind...they just react to the input signal...(my boogie sob had a "limit" which was not a limiter, but an attenuater for the power amp)...

i don't think you got my point....i mean 1 tube is cheaper, they can sell it as "it has atube!!!", and they don't have to put much thought into tube circuit design, which would put the cost higher...a power tube in a unit like the Korg workstation thingy or the desktop unit (the ones with tubes), well i don't think it would work, right? have to use a tube designed for line levels like those in a keyborad etc...i think that multiple tubes in preamps aren't just to create harmonic distortion, but to simply bring the guitar output up to line level...again, distortion and pretty sounds being a byproduct of the task at hand...why not two tubes? what's the price vs. payoff? (i don't know, maybe the HD is good with line level into one tube alone...dig?) as far as power tube, well, i already said that, nevermind...

[Hink]

You know, it's cheap to put a 12AX7 @ low voltage in as an alibi ("look, dude, a real tube amp !!!"), while a tube poweramp with high voltages and a real output transformer makes an amp almost as expensive and heavy as a real tube amp.
There were some pretty decent hybrids with power tubes though, EC's Musicmans you mentioned or Billy Gibbons' Legend amps come to mind.
All said, the truth certainly is relative here. Players differ, styles differ, jobs differ ...
Cheers, susiwong

well that's my point....one tube in a pedal or such is complete bull and hype...but two or more is not and if you look you'll see boogie has one in fact that does provide true tube distortion with more than one 12ax7...BTW when it comes to high volume clipping from power tubes (which we agree takes a high volume) how can you be sure that some of that rich tone isn't coming from speaker clipping?...remember before fuzz they sliced speakers with razor blades ...

[susiwong]

Oh,and Hink,
one of my secret weapons is a little speaker simulation box a tech built for me long ago, copied the circuit from a Mesa Studio Preamp, passive, and the parts cost about 15 $ including the little metal box. I remember it being much better with the 9000 pre than the built-in one.
I don't have the diagram and it's filled up with hot glue (correct word ?), but should not be that hard to copy for any decent electronics tech.
If you know someone clever it might be worth a try.
susiwong

[susiwong]

Man, you guys are fast !
I'll be back with a big pot of coffee in a few minutes, it's 3 am here in good old Germany.
susiwong

[guitarzan]

There was a really cool lineup from Hughes & Kettner in the early 90's of half rack sized tube amps - preamp and power amp and speaker emulation (optional). I still own the entire series, my favorite is the "Blues Master" and it has a single 12AX7 preamp tube and an EL84 power tube. It really is nice - lot's of "chime" and great for clean, but I can get closer to what I'm looking for in overdriven direct tone with digital modeling.

[ross g]

Man, you guys are fast !
I'll be back with a big pot of coffee in a few minutes, it's 3 am here in good old Germany.
susiwong

yeah, by the time my post came up yours was there saying very similar...happens a lot!

[Hink]

it's funny yah know? You might be able to count on two hands the amount of companies making tube power amps...but hell everyone and their brother throws a 12ax7 in there stuff...now true, one 12ax7 is not really going to provide that tone, you need at least two, but why would the companies not use a power tube for the myth? I mean if you're going after that uninformed crowd than bigger would be better, also they could use it to inflate the price...

because you are dealing with line level signals at that point, power tubes are not for that, right? they have specific input and output, not something for a processing function...and i think economics play into it, i don't know enough specific info to even comment on 1 vs. 2, i know what you are saying: 1 tube to overdrive into tube 2, but probably a price vs. usefull outcome ratio

part of tube distortion is the result of tube pre-amps having more than one tube and the even and odd harmonics...power amps in guitar amps, tvs, stereos, ect generally have no controls of any kind...they just react to the input signal...(my boogie sob had a "limit" which was not a limiter, but an attenuater for the power amp)...

i don't think you got my point....i mean 1 tube is cheaper, they can sell it as "it has atube!!!", and they don't have to put much thought into tube circuit design, which would put the cost higher...a power tube in a unit like the Korg workstation thingy or the desktop unit (the ones with tubes), well i don't think it would work, right? have to use a tube designed for line levels like those in a keyborad etc...i think that multiple tubes in preamps aren't just to create harmonic distortion, but to simply bring the guitar output up to line level...again, distortion and pretty sounds being a byproduct of the task at hand...why not two tubes? what's the price vs. payoff? (i don't know, maybe the HD is good with line level into one tube alone...dig?) as far as power tube, well, i already said that, nevermind...

I got your point but I dont think you're right about matching levels being the pre-amps job

...it's not about that in a pre-amp...so I don't think you see my point.

Definitions of Pre-Amp on the Web:

A circuit which takes a small signal and amplifies it sufficiently to be fed into the power amplifier for further amplification. A pre-amp includes all of the controls for regulating tone, volume, and channel balance.

note the word regulating, not just bring it "up to" the volume...the pre-amp shapes and makes the tone, the power amp boosts it...that's why mater volumes came into play...to bring down the output of the pre-amp, not push it up...

[Hink]

btw if you really want a cool test go find an old ampeg and plug your guitar into the power amp direct jack...they label it wierd ext amp I think...plug you guitar into one of those and it will be monster loud, plug a sansamp into it and it might shock you...

[ross g]

it's funny yah know? You might be able to count on two hands the amount of companies making tube power amps...but hell everyone and their brother throws a 12ax7 in there stuff...now true, one 12ax7 is not really going to provide that tone, you need at least two, but why would the companies not use a power tube for the myth? I mean if you're going after that uninformed crowd than bigger would be better, also they could use it to inflate the price...

because you are dealing with line level signals at that point, power tubes are not for that, right? they have specific input and output, not something for a processing function...and i think economics play into it, i don't know enough specific info to even comment on 1 vs. 2, i know what you are saying: 1 tube to overdrive into tube 2, but probably a price vs. usefull outcome ratio

part of tube distortion is the result of tube pre-amps having more than one tube and the even and odd harmonics...power amps in guitar amps, tvs, stereos, ect generally have no controls of any kind...they just react to the input signal...(my boogie sob had a "limit" which was not a limiter, but an attenuater for the power amp)...

i don't think you got my point....i mean 1 tube is cheaper, they can sell it as "it has atube!!!", and they don't have to put much thought into tube circuit design, which would put the cost higher...a power tube in a unit like the Korg workstation thingy or the desktop unit (the ones with tubes), well i don't think it would work, right? have to use a tube designed for line levels like those in a keyborad etc...i think that multiple tubes in preamps aren't just to create harmonic distortion, but to simply bring the guitar output up to line level...again, distortion and pretty sounds being a byproduct of the task at hand...why not two tubes? what's the price vs. payoff? (i don't know, maybe the HD is good with line level into one tube alone...dig?) as far as power tube, well, i already said that, nevermind...

I got your point but I dont think you're right about matching levels being the pre-amps job

...it's not about that in a pre-amp...so I don't think you see my point.

Definitions of Pre-Amp on the Web:

A circuit which takes a small signal and amplifies it sufficiently to be fed into the power amplifier for further amplification. A pre-amp includes all of the controls for regulating tone, volume, and channel balance.

note the word regulating, not just bring it "up to" the volume...the pre-amp shapes and makes the tone, the power amp boosts it...that's why mater volumes came into play...to bring down the output of the pre-amp, not push it up...

you are splitting hairs...if a preamps job in a TUBE AMP is not to boost a guitar level signal (and i'm talking in early stages of amplification) to a usable level (like a mic pre, diferent levels) what on earth does it then? think about first why there are even guitar amps and what the were originally designed to do, that's my point...jimi hendix wasn't around at the time, and tube amps were around before electronic pioneers employed "tube distortion" even... yes, i know a preamp has tone controls...really, i know , i've got several meeself right? and i'm not trying to insult your intelligance, i'm trying to be clear on what i'm saying, that's all ....

[susiwong]

Freshly equipped, want a cup ?
I think you both have a point. The guitar-into-poweramp-thing really works, my tech surprised me a lot with that exact test lately. I could have sworn otherwise. He then told me, tube amp tone controls are passive and they reduce your signal level considerably by design. That's where you need the extra tubes to restore the signal so it can drive the big bottles. And I'm sure you all know that in recording it's often better to chain two or even more compressors than to let one comp do all the work. That might not have been Leo Fender's thinking, but high tech amp designers, guys like Bogner or Diezel, certainly are clever enough to take things like that in consideration. And they really make an art out of preamp design, I sure appreciate that, though it's not my own favourite tone.
susiwong

[Hink]

it's funny yah know? You might be able to count on two hands the amount of companies making tube power amps...but hell everyone and their brother throws a 12ax7 in there stuff...now true, one 12ax7 is not really going to provide that tone, you need at least two, but why would the companies not use a power tube for the myth? I mean if you're going after that uninformed crowd than bigger would be better, also they could use it to inflate the price...

because you are dealing with line level signals at that point, power tubes are not for that, right? they have specific input and output, not something for a processing function...and i think economics play into it, i don't know enough specific info to even comment on 1 vs. 2, i know what you are saying: 1 tube to overdrive into tube 2, but probably a price vs. usefull outcome ratio

part of tube distortion is the result of tube pre-amps having more than one tube and the even and odd harmonics...power amps in guitar amps, tvs, stereos, ect generally have no controls of any kind...they just react to the input signal...(my boogie sob had a "limit" which was not a limiter, but an attenuater for the power amp)...

i don't think you got my point....i mean 1 tube is cheaper, they can sell it as "it has atube!!!", and they don't have to put much thought into tube circuit design, which would put the cost higher...a power tube in a unit like the Korg workstation thingy or the desktop unit (the ones with tubes), well i don't think it would work, right? have to use a tube designed for line levels like those in a keyborad etc...i think that multiple tubes in preamps aren't just to create harmonic distortion, but to simply bring the guitar output up to line level...again, distortion and pretty sounds being a byproduct of the task at hand...why not two tubes? what's the price vs. payoff? (i don't know, maybe the HD is good with line level into one tube alone...dig?) as far as power tube, well, i already said that, nevermind...

I got your point but I dont think you're right about matching levels being the pre-amps job

...it's not about that in a pre-amp...so I don't think you see my point.

Definitions of Pre-Amp on the Web:

A circuit which takes a small signal and amplifies it sufficiently to be fed into the power amplifier for further amplification. A pre-amp includes all of the controls for regulating tone, volume, and channel balance.

note the word regulating, not just bring it "up to" the volume...the pre-amp shapes and makes the tone, the power amp boosts it...that's why mater volumes came into play...to bring down the output of the pre-amp, not push it up...

you are splitting hairs...if a preamps job in a TUBE AMP is not to boost a guitar level signal (and i'm talking in early stages of amplification) what on earth does it then? think about first why there are even guitar amps and what the were originally designed to do, that's my point...jimio hendix wasn't around at the time, and tube amps were around before electronic pioneers employed "tube distortion" even... yes, i know a preamp has tone controls...really, i know , i've got several meeself right? and i'm not trying to insult your intelligance, i'm trying to be clear on what i'm saying, that's all ....

I'm not splitting hairs it's job is in part as you say, but it has multi tasks...but a power amp has one purpose and one purpose only...it might pick up some cool effects along the way such as distortion...but it's only job is to make the signal louder....if you ran the signal direct into your power amp you might need to turn the signal down, not up to play at a proper level....again why master volumes were added...and why pre-amps are there...still it's a matter of choice. I really like my sound and like Roger said I like to get my tone, then I wish to amplify that faithfully and with little alteration to the tone once it's left my pre-amp and exciter...it's in my pre-amp that my effects loop resides, it's between my pre-amp and power amp that I put my Aphex Aurel Exciter...the power amp does nothing but make that tone louder and pick up some distortion (for me as little as possible) from that point on...

[ross g]

Freshly equipped, want a cup ?
I think you both have a point. The guitar-into-poweramp-thing really works, my tech surprised me a lot with that exact test lately. I could have sworn otherwise. He then told me, tube amp tone controls are passive and they reduce your signal level considerably by design. That's where you need the extra tubes to restore the signal so it can drive the big bottles. And I'm sure you all know that in recording it's often better to chain two or even more compressors than to let one comp do all the work. That might not have been Leo Fender's thinking, but high tech amp designers, guys like Bogner or Diezel, certainly are clever enough to take things like that in consideration. And they really make an art out of preamp design, I sure appreciate that, though it's not my own favourite tone.
susiwong

i know what you mean, all i'm saying is that in any guitar amp (regardless of a master volume/tone contorls/etc) there is a preamp section (or input section perhaps) that brings a passive guitar output up to line level, and that feeds a output amplification stage that drives the speaker/s...these different stages employ different tube types that are spec'd out/designed for the task at hand...that's the ONLY thing i'm trying to say, and it is my fault for being unclear because i was trying to address other thoughts at the same time...again my fault, but my other points were coming from any understanding of these main points....

[susiwong]

guitarzan,
you're absolutely right about those little HK boxes. I'd love to get me one of these "Blues Masters" aka "Crunch Masters" for a decent price. The power tube really makes it more dynamic than a standard recording pre.
Some of my friends have got those old blue Tubemans (only a preamp tube though)for direct recording, for basic vintage sounds they sound really decent and "feel" better to me than most modelers. No modern high gain without pedals though.
Cheers, susiwong

[Hink]

fwiw I also way over power my monitors (tannoy protojs) for the same reasons...I do not turn them up loud, but a large power amp running at a lower volume is not going to distort much at all...amps are rated at full volume...many boast like .05 thd at say 100w...now take a 400 watt power amp and it will likely have similar specs at full volume...but you wont be pushing it harder...so you know its cleaner...if you clip your monitors by overdriving them you need to work on your ears some...so if you hear clipping and it's not coming from the monitors, and you couldn't hear the tiny amount that might exist in the power amp...that leaves one source now doesn't it...

[Sickle]

Ok, hink, I have a question(s) for you:

On my Fender Pro Verb, I sometimes run a BOSS GL 100 solid state pre-amp into it, which has way more tone shaping abilities.

My question is this:

Where do I want my EQ settings to be on the Fender? At zero, or like 3-4? Also, I was told to turn the master on the Fender up a bit to exploit the tubes, turn the gain way up on the BOSS, and use the BOSS's master to set the volume.

Is that correct?

And one more:

I was also told to use the pre-amp inline like a stomp-box depite the pre-amp in inputs on the back of the Fender..I haven't had a problem with that, but is that correct?