Lunch Money, they are already going to demo AT2 in stores. What is your disagreement then? Your criterion has been satisfied. Can you think of any other outcomes besides the 5 I mentioned above?
They give you guys more options and you still find a way to be unsatisfied about it :-/
Amplitube 2 Jimi Hendrix RELEASED this month!!!
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
While I *do* know that this is a rather pointless discussion, with all the points being raised before over and over allready, I still think dongles suck the most of all.
Especially since I learned a new thing regarding Steinbergs policies...
When you lose your dongle, you lose ALL your rights to use the software. You gotta pay the full price again!
Now, where does it say so *anywhere* on the box, in the manual, the EULA or whatver?
NOWHERE does it say the dongle is defining the value of the product. It only says it's the copy protection thingy.
At the very same time, there go all the f**ked up hardware analogies.
When losing the key of my car, it'll cost me around 20 bucks to get a replacement. It'll cost me like 100 to get the locks replaced as well. That's up to me.
Again, where does it say *anywhere* that the dongle is the value you're actually purchasing? It simply doesn't!
So, software companies make you believe that you purchase (or license, or whatever you want to call it) the software. That's a lie. You pay for the copy protection *only*.
Or, if you don't like it that way around: The copy protection is the only thing worth anything in what you purchased.
Now, if software companies were at least honest, telling you about that very thing.
There's a few other disadvantages coming in as well with the all so great "it's so convenient that you can authorize multiple things on one dongle" approach.
What's so nice about that?
Oh yeah, I only have to deal with one of them funny plastic thingies. Great.
Now, let the day come you lose that single thing. Not only will you lose the key to your car, but you'll also lose the key to your house, your garage, you're chalet, your boat, your everything. And, no, you can't just say "f**k it" and buy a bunch of new keys - you gotta buy a new car, a new house, a new whatever...
What's so difficult in realizing that this approach is utterly f**ked up?
Probably some companies are charging less than the full price when a dongle gets lost (actually, Apple seems to have a rather fair policy), but Steinberg defenitely isn't, it has just been happening to someone on the german Cubase mailing list.
Don't know about other companies.
Add to all that dilemma that some companies are even making things more difficult, such as the braindead dudes at Yellow Tools. In addition to having to use a dongle, they require an online activation for the dongle as well (no, we're not talking about updates here). Why would I need to struggle with such a stupid thing in addition, especially considering that in quite some cases their server has apparently been dodgy, to say the least?
Why is an additional serial required to install Cubase? I just forgot mine at home when I've been touring, not having it installed on my laptop allready. Had to look for a serial on the web. And yes, OF COURSE I used it! I had ALL the value I paid for (the dongle that is) with me, so I'm pretty much entitled to use whatever serial I feel like using, the serial is worth less than the paper it's printed on. Let alone it doesn't serve a single purpose (you don't even need it to register at their forums).
And hell yes, while I won't install a cracked version of any software to avoid the (severe) demo limitations, it's just clear that there will be people tempted to do so.
In addition, in the case of Logic/PC, it's indeed *me* being tempted. I can't get a dongle replacement anymore. The new dongles won't work on my Windows box.
I have never been defending warez, or even justifying the use of them (with the exception of the Logic thing, which should be pretty much understandable for everybody), I can understand the possible need for some copy protection as well.
But I don't understand any justification for almost raping your loyal users. Which clearly is the case sometimes.
If things such as using the dongle would happen to me, if a company such as Steinberg would ask the full price again, just to get it replaced, I'm sure I'd sue their ass big time. Would probably be pretty much successful as well...
Enough with it. Things are incredibly obvious anyways...
Especially since I learned a new thing regarding Steinbergs policies...
When you lose your dongle, you lose ALL your rights to use the software. You gotta pay the full price again!
Now, where does it say so *anywhere* on the box, in the manual, the EULA or whatver?
NOWHERE does it say the dongle is defining the value of the product. It only says it's the copy protection thingy.
At the very same time, there go all the f**ked up hardware analogies.
When losing the key of my car, it'll cost me around 20 bucks to get a replacement. It'll cost me like 100 to get the locks replaced as well. That's up to me.
Again, where does it say *anywhere* that the dongle is the value you're actually purchasing? It simply doesn't!
So, software companies make you believe that you purchase (or license, or whatever you want to call it) the software. That's a lie. You pay for the copy protection *only*.
Or, if you don't like it that way around: The copy protection is the only thing worth anything in what you purchased.
Now, if software companies were at least honest, telling you about that very thing.
There's a few other disadvantages coming in as well with the all so great "it's so convenient that you can authorize multiple things on one dongle" approach.
What's so nice about that?
Oh yeah, I only have to deal with one of them funny plastic thingies. Great.
Now, let the day come you lose that single thing. Not only will you lose the key to your car, but you'll also lose the key to your house, your garage, you're chalet, your boat, your everything. And, no, you can't just say "f**k it" and buy a bunch of new keys - you gotta buy a new car, a new house, a new whatever...
What's so difficult in realizing that this approach is utterly f**ked up?
Probably some companies are charging less than the full price when a dongle gets lost (actually, Apple seems to have a rather fair policy), but Steinberg defenitely isn't, it has just been happening to someone on the german Cubase mailing list.
Don't know about other companies.
Add to all that dilemma that some companies are even making things more difficult, such as the braindead dudes at Yellow Tools. In addition to having to use a dongle, they require an online activation for the dongle as well (no, we're not talking about updates here). Why would I need to struggle with such a stupid thing in addition, especially considering that in quite some cases their server has apparently been dodgy, to say the least?
Why is an additional serial required to install Cubase? I just forgot mine at home when I've been touring, not having it installed on my laptop allready. Had to look for a serial on the web. And yes, OF COURSE I used it! I had ALL the value I paid for (the dongle that is) with me, so I'm pretty much entitled to use whatever serial I feel like using, the serial is worth less than the paper it's printed on. Let alone it doesn't serve a single purpose (you don't even need it to register at their forums).
And hell yes, while I won't install a cracked version of any software to avoid the (severe) demo limitations, it's just clear that there will be people tempted to do so.
In addition, in the case of Logic/PC, it's indeed *me* being tempted. I can't get a dongle replacement anymore. The new dongles won't work on my Windows box.
I have never been defending warez, or even justifying the use of them (with the exception of the Logic thing, which should be pretty much understandable for everybody), I can understand the possible need for some copy protection as well.
But I don't understand any justification for almost raping your loyal users. Which clearly is the case sometimes.
If things such as using the dongle would happen to me, if a company such as Steinberg would ask the full price again, just to get it replaced, I'm sure I'd sue their ass big time. Would probably be pretty much successful as well...
Enough with it. Things are incredibly obvious anyways...
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Says who? We'll see. Every country is different. Not all music stores can or will demo every product, and many of them certainly WON'T unless it's made easy for them by the company in question.A3ntar wrote:Lunch Money, they are already going to demo AT2 in stores. What is your disagreement then? Your criterion has been satisfied. Can you think of any other outcomes besides the 5 I mentioned above?
They give you guys more options and you still find a way to be unsatisfied about it :-/
And don't get upset with me or paint me with the "whiner" brush. You should know by now that I'm not one to "whine" just for the sake of it, which is what's implied by "finding a way to be unsatisfied." I didn't FIND or even look for anything. IK are the ones that found ME, and an unsatisfied potential customer they uncovered. All I'm doing is expressing my indignation that IK Multimedia has drawn the line, and their decision has left me firmly on the other side.
If you REALLY want me to go through your post piece by piece then so be it... but I've gone down that path recently and it only leads to hard feelings, followed by an eventual and inevitable, "I'm sorry man... I love you!" So I'll just skip right to that part:
Last edited by Lunch Money on Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2035 posts since 6 Sep, 2005
You bring up very good points Sascha. I wasn't aware that Steinberg charged you the full amount if you lost your key! YIKES! Is it maybe because it is impossible for them to know that you have sold it instead?
And that serial issues. Why ask for a serial number indeed? maybe you needed when you call tech support?
And that serial issues. Why ask for a serial number indeed? maybe you needed when you call tech support?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2035 posts since 6 Sep, 2005
LOL, LunchMoney, from me too
I understand your frustration, beleive me, but I also understand IKMM's point of view. That is what makes it hard for me to understand why folks keep on being on the fense about it all. I am pretty sure you understand IKMM delicate situation as well.
Honestly ( and I am not patronizing anyone here ), what would you guys have done if you were IKMM? ( concerning the demo in specific and CP in genreal )
from me tooI understand your frustration, beleive me, but I also understand IKMM's point of view. That is what makes it hard for me to understand why folks keep on being on the fense about it all. I am pretty sure you understand IKMM delicate situation as well.
Honestly ( and I am not patronizing anyone here ), what would you guys have done if you were IKMM? ( concerning the demo in specific and CP in genreal )
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- KVRAF
- 9217 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from Pequot Lakes, MN
Which is a violation of the EULA in most cases. For example, NIlets you have two authorizations, but it's technically a EULA violation to run both machines at the same time...Sascha Franck wrote:Btw, I really changed my mind about dongles vs. challenge/response. At first I thought C/R sucked because I wouldn't be able to install things on as many machines as I'd like to. But thinking about it, others than for testing purposes I never had more than two "active" music machines running, and that's perfectly possible with C/R. Which is even great as I could actually run those two machines parallely. Impossible with dongles.
ew
A spectral heretic...
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
A3ntar: Dongle-requiring version comes in retail box. I think you MUST purchase AT2 in retail box anyhow, there's no downloadable version.
Non-dongle-requiring demo with HARD-CODED restrictions available for download. Since the restrictions would not just be a "mask" for the full program underneath, but a true part of the code, they couldn't be any more easily haxxorzed than dongle protection. Indeed, I believe that the days are gone that uber-hackers could decompile an .exe and work on the hex code.
If possible, it'd still be easier for them to foil the dongle than do so, it wouldn't be worth their time.
Very simple solution, indeed.
Greg
Non-dongle-requiring demo with HARD-CODED restrictions available for download. Since the restrictions would not just be a "mask" for the full program underneath, but a true part of the code, they couldn't be any more easily haxxorzed than dongle protection. Indeed, I believe that the days are gone that uber-hackers could decompile an .exe and work on the hex code.
If possible, it'd still be easier for them to foil the dongle than do so, it wouldn't be worth their time.Very simple solution, indeed.
Greg
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
Hink, that's a line from the Godfather pt 3 and it was in complete jest. I quote movies often. (it is a famous line, that one). Anyway, it was about discussing warez which I try to avoid and I was making a joke to Sickle specifically in that case because he caught that I had just previously said I didn't think it was a good idea to discuss warez on KVR.Hink wrote:Yah know Squids, no offense but several times you have kind of put some of us down for speaking our opinions...and those of us who express our opinions in a mature and reasonable manner should get respect.
Statements like that in all honesty make me say to myself "maybe I shouldn't offer my opinion"...of course I don't even listen to myselfRight when I am out, they pull me back in....but I'm sorry my friend...I think our points are valid...getting defensive, or hinting that here at forum for such discussion we are being some kind of pain in the ass by voicing our valid opinions, I'm troubled by that.
I know it's not your fight, but I don't like comments that are dissmissive like that. It's better you say nothing at all then to fault us for our valid points that you do not agree with.
EDIT no one is forcing you to respond either, it is your option...
Also, I think we're going round and round. I agree with some of your points. You agree with some of mine and we agree to disagree on others. Bottom line is, each person makes up their own mind anyway. A lot of conjecture going on about people in general and that one we could argue infinitely (and this thread proves the meaning of infinite... jokes here folks...as always).
ProTools, Cubase and Logic are the three most popular DAW sysems out there and all three have USB keys. Cubase and Nuendo are some of the most popular (this place used to be called KVR-VST even!
) and they have the syncrosoft key required (even the new Cubase SE does too). If you have that or you have CSR or Miroslav then this is not even an issue. When the system you use is not geared for making a traditional non-keyed demo then if your only option is to make a demo for those that have the key you might as well do it. Whether someone wants to buy a key just for demoing... who knows? I know a lot of people who would and I probably would myself. I can also see there are a lot of people that wouldn't. So, yes, hopefully there will be the opportunity then to try it in the store. That depends largely on the store's computer set ups and the employees maintaining it. I know IK supplies store copies with the sales kit that goes out.
I realize that IF the store near you happens to not have a good in store demo (for many possible reasons) and if it is not available as a demo to try without having to buy a key then I can fully see some people not getting it. That may just have to be a sacrifice a company makes. Is it good business is an endlessly debatable question. If you ask me I am of the mind to try to get EVERYBODY who might possibly be interested. But, that can be somewhat idealistic. If good business is judged at the end of the day how many units you sell then it is simply a question of how many more people buy it because it is protected and they don't have that easy temptation to rip it off vs. how many people are put off by the limitations of the protection (such as the conditions of the demo). Since there is sooooo much casual copying that goes on if it isn't protected I would venture to say that it still sells more because it is protected, even if you also lose some people because of it. Trades off somehow at least as far as numbers go. The inaccessibility does isolate though which is another tradeoff. Some companies like Digidesign or UAD just offer what they offer and you can get it or not (like an HD system or a UAD card... no demos for download only there either... and not so easy to try out in every store either! Yet it does sell... heck, I bought both and I never even tried them out first... it happens).
I alway say, each person has to do what is right for them though. No question. I don't say anyone's own opinion on what they would do is "invalid". Maybe I might disagree what they think "most people" would do or whether something is rediculous or not. But, that's all opinions anyway and we're all entitled. It's geting repetative though so hopefully my points were made and understood at least (even if you don't agree).
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
Well, of course. There always is. The best test is to go to the store you like and see if you can demo SampleTank, Sonik Synth 2 or Miroslav Philharmonik. If you can't then it's not looking good for that store having an in-store demo. But, IK has a sales kit with store copies of the software and information about the product that goes out to all retailers as well as email info, audio demos and sales reps travel all over the globe. I know because IK is SR's distributor and this is how it is done. But, IK cannot control what each store actually does with this material. The STORE ALSO wants to make the sale!!! So, if the STORE is smart they will have it available to demo.Lunch Money wrote: The only thing that remains at this level is for IK to be smart about it. For all I know, maybe they already ARE! Maybe there's a mailing list in place and contact has been made with their retailers.
Greg
A3ntar hit the nail on the head I think (apart from calling it Ilok, which is different. That's the ProTools one. The AT2 key is a syncrosoft key which is the same one Steinberg uses as well as Arturia and Vienna). But, we're just following the same logic.
If there WAS a way to offer the demo without the key and not make it vulnerable (going against what the expense of time and money for the CP was for... which is not logical at all) then I think that would be great! I suggested some kind of limited version a while ago. Let's see. Who knows?
I did think A3ntars question in the last page was a good one. What would YOU do? Let's say it is GIVEN that companies of course are looking to increase protection (so suggesting less protection such as a simple serial would not realistically be an option... any OTHER ideas though? This would be the most interesting and constructive part... and I rarely see a response that makes me think "now THAT is how it should be done!"... at least with all things considered).
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I know. But I also know they don't bother in case it's the same person using the two machines at the same time.ew wrote: Which is a violation of the EULA in most cases. For example, NIlets you have two authorizations, but it's technically a EULA violation to run both machines at the same time...
And when you think about it, it's making some sense to dedicate, say, one computer for Kontakt 2 and intensively streaming libraries, while using the rest of their stuff on another machine - which wouldn't even violate the EULA in case you didn't get them as a bundle.
Anyways, as said, NI really doesn't bother about it.
The EULA are there to protect them against multiple people using their stuff on multiple machines. Which, of course, is understandable.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
Squids, I still think you're missing my main point...I really have no issue with dongles by principle...my ilok is fine, to have one key for everything I think should be the ultimate goal. However you overlook the newbie and the youngsters. In another discussion myself and Sascha both commented on how brutal we were to lps in our youth...I suspect that it's because we guitar players ignore everything else when it's time to play...we don't want to wait to play...we don't want to jump through hoops to play...so you develop a mindset...remember first impressions in sales is the most important thing, and I know myself and many others would just say (for demo purpose) "oh great another hassle just to try this" and move on. Dongles might have issues with some peoples systems (might hell, apparently other people have lots of troubles with ilok, not me though), how long do you think someone will work at it just to try the thing...they're gonna think "if it's this hard to try it, forget it"...now of course that wont be everybody..but sales could walk out the door...letting a sale walk out the door is a capitol crime in retail...
Newbies might be confused by it...true story..when I first started learning about Daws and selling software (really @ Mars) I first heard of a dongle...I thought they were pulling my leg because it was such a stupid word...I had been playing guitar over 1/4 century at that point.
Every single point you make, makes 100% absolute sense...but we're guitar players...our craft is about not making sense half the time...I realise we're going around in circles...but I'm tired of rationalizing companies ways of doing things.
Face it, no matter where you turn, it seems they get off on pissing us off then still selling us their product...who likes spam? I don't...but they keep using it for advertising...why? I mean if it's so hated, then why do they use a tactic that gets people mad...worse is telemarketers...how many funny stories have you heard about people getting pissed off at asswipes that call on the phone? (btw one of the reasons I got out of retail was because my boss insisted that I start cold calling, I already had turned down a job based on that)...but yet they still do it...I'm on the state do not call list, I'm on the federal do not call list...I have caller id (even on call waiting) and I have call intercept...yet at least once a month someone still gets through...why? Why do they think if they piss me off I'll buy their crap? Obviously morons all over the place do..or it's a good right off.
I'm sorry that you don't see that the issue is not 20 bux...it's companies being more of a pain in the ass everyday and they expect us to just bend over and take it.
BTW another story....before I went to work in retail I was in the last store I worked at, Daddy's Junky Music (if that makes sense)...there was this O'Hagan guitar. (remember those, underrated sweet gems? I almost got one on ebay last fall) I asked the salesman if I could try it, I already had counted my money to see if I had enough cash and it was obvious I had intentions of buying it. He brought over a cable, plugged it in and played for me...I couldn't get the damn guitar out of his hands...finally I called him a stupid moron and walked out...I never did get to play the guitar...that is not uncommon at all in music stores, and I'm sure you're aware of it...in fact that was why Mark Bagleman (sp?) started Mars...too bad he had such poor management under him.
Like I say..I know I can't stop it, but I don't like it...I think it's absurd companies think they can treat us like this and one day some company will turn the tables on this crap and be heroes...
Newbies might be confused by it...true story..when I first started learning about Daws and selling software (really @ Mars) I first heard of a dongle...I thought they were pulling my leg because it was such a stupid word...I had been playing guitar over 1/4 century at that point.
Every single point you make, makes 100% absolute sense...but we're guitar players...our craft is about not making sense half the time...I realise we're going around in circles...but I'm tired of rationalizing companies ways of doing things.
Face it, no matter where you turn, it seems they get off on pissing us off then still selling us their product...who likes spam? I don't...but they keep using it for advertising...why? I mean if it's so hated, then why do they use a tactic that gets people mad...worse is telemarketers...how many funny stories have you heard about people getting pissed off at asswipes that call on the phone? (btw one of the reasons I got out of retail was because my boss insisted that I start cold calling, I already had turned down a job based on that)...but yet they still do it...I'm on the state do not call list, I'm on the federal do not call list...I have caller id (even on call waiting) and I have call intercept...yet at least once a month someone still gets through...why? Why do they think if they piss me off I'll buy their crap? Obviously morons all over the place do..or it's a good right off.
I'm sorry that you don't see that the issue is not 20 bux...it's companies being more of a pain in the ass everyday and they expect us to just bend over and take it.
BTW another story....before I went to work in retail I was in the last store I worked at, Daddy's Junky Music (if that makes sense)...there was this O'Hagan guitar. (remember those, underrated sweet gems? I almost got one on ebay last fall) I asked the salesman if I could try it, I already had counted my money to see if I had enough cash and it was obvious I had intentions of buying it. He brought over a cable, plugged it in and played for me...I couldn't get the damn guitar out of his hands...finally I called him a stupid moron and walked out...I never did get to play the guitar...that is not uncommon at all in music stores, and I'm sure you're aware of it...in fact that was why Mark Bagleman (sp?) started Mars...too bad he had such poor management under him.
Like I say..I know I can't stop it, but I don't like it...I think it's absurd companies think they can treat us like this and one day some company will turn the tables on this crap and be heroes...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
no but we need something to talk aboutMelodioso wrote:..what is the fuss all about?
Has the demo for AT2 been released yet? Is AT2 available?
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
he say's on the 242'nd pageSquids wrote:
Also, I think we're going round and round.
Subz