True Stereo In Cubase SX 2 using send

[David Else]

Hello,

Demo sounds great. I understand that this is a 'true stereo' reverb. When I use it as an insert on a stereo track and pan around, the reverb seems to follow the sound as expected. It seems to move around the room, I am assuming this is the 'true stereo' aspect at work?

My problem is, I understand this is probably a Cubase issue, but when I use it as a send then everything is summed to the middle. When I move the send pan arround the reverb DOES change, but doen't follow the sound as it does when it is an insert. I don't have the CPU to have every channel requiring this feauture having its own insert! Is there a solution so I can use the send and have it working in true stereo.

This issue seems the same in all the reverbs I have tried, but I can't get an answer anywhere! Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but your forum seems full of great replies

David

[nick at artsacoustic]

well, i don't really know, but maybe (as you stated) the cubase send summes the original signal up to mono (even if it is stereo), before feed it into the fx channel. that in some cases makes the original stereo sound sound very different, especially when the phase is incorrect to widen the stereo image.
this is the case with a lot of samples.
did you try to use the reverb on a groupchannel instead?
also make sure, that when used as a send, the original signal (input) on the gui is set to zero.
there should be the identical behaviour as when used as an insert effect.
let me know if it works then.

[David Else]

I have done some more testing and I am afraid I can't find the solution.

The group channel has the exact same effect as the FX track.

I have adjusted the original signal input on the gui.

The send problem is the same on mono and stereo cubase tracks.

To recap:

If i pan an instrument around when using your reverb as a send, I hear the original sound move, but NOT the reverb. If I also try and use the pan of the send within the cubase channel (by selecting routing) then the sound of the reverb moves a little but DOESN'T change as it does as an insert effect. There is always reverb in both the left and right sides in the same amount wherever i pan the sound.

If i pan an instrument around when your reverb is an insert then the reverb follows the sound. For example if i pan it all the way to the left then I am hearing no reverb in the right speaker. As I move it to the right I hear more and more reverb appearing in the right. This is what I would think is the 'true stero' effect?

The effect is similar in other reverbs I have tried in cubase, so I don't think you have a bug.

If I use a delay as a send then the cubase pan for the delay send moves the delay around in the stereo. I assumed I could do this with reverb to move the reverb on top of the original sound (as when it is an insert). Maybe it is not possible... but that would suck

Other than that, great reverb!

Thanks again,

David

[Kingston]

thermal. Are you sure you're using stereo groups or aux busses (or effects for that matter)? Because your problems is certainly not Cubases fault. The whole signal path is stereo, IF, you assign it so.

So remember to create STEREO groups and aux busses, not mono.

Remember, some reverbs might have mono input *internally* even if the VST input is stereo. You can't do anything about that, other than use some other plugin..

[zeep]

I use both sx2.2 and sx3 and don't have that problem.

[David Else]

Kingston. Yes, the group tracks created are stereo, as are the FX tracks. Am i missing something? I assume AA reverb is stereo input? All is ok as an insert...

I hope people didn't misunderstand when I said 'everything is summed to the middle' when used as a send. The resulting reverb IS stereo, but it is as if the sound source is always in the middle, regardless of where it is panned using the track pans or the send pans.

Has anyone been able to try this reverb as an insert and a send and try panning around? Any different results to what I described?

[nick at artsacoustic]

ahh, thermal, i think i know your problem now.
you seem to missunderstand the principal of "true stereo".
ok, here's what true stereo means in short:
when you pan the input signal hard to the left, it is a natural behaviour that even if the original signal is panned hard left, the reverb of course does _not_ respond _only_ left.
there are of course a lot of reflections still
on the right side.
that is because no matter how hard the original signal is planned to the left, the sound information is allways recognised by your right ear, too.
thats what actually makes the information stereo.
you wouldn't recognise that information as stereo if it'd reach only one ear.

now, your problem is simply, that, if you use our reverb as an insert, the panningslider in cubase is _post/after_ insert, in this case _post/after_
the stereooutput of the channel, thus also after the reverb.
now, if you pan our reverb _after_ it's output (with the pan of the cubase-channel) it will of course not even react, but the channel output of cubase does pan the correct stereo signal completely to the right or left, wherever you drag the panslider.
when used as a send, you actually pan the original signal _before_ the reverb, so the input is allready panned _before_ it reaches the reverb plugin.
and according to the inputsignal our reverb does act then differently as if you'd pan the output of our reverb.
understand?

[David Else]

A Ha! I understand...

This being the case, you are saying that your reverb takes into account the position of the send panner, not the track panner, and calculates the reverb around that?

If I place the send as prefader and bring the track volume to 0 I can only hear the reverb. Now when I pan the send I can hear the reverb move a little to the left and right.

Am I to conclude that if I have a sound panned on the track panner at say 75% left, I should also pan the reverb send to 75% left to get the most accurate spacial reverb?

Thanks for your swift reply. CHEERS. Sorry if I have been asking you the obvious... cubase routing is quite complex. I should have studies the block diagrams in the manual a bit more

[nick at artsacoustic]

A Ha! I understand...

This being the case, you are saying that your reverb takes into account the position of the send panner, not the track panner, and calculates the reverb around that?

If I place the send as prefader and bring the track volume to 0 I can only hear the reverb. Now when I pan the send I can hear the reverb move a little to the left and right.

most sequencers do pan the send also, when using trackpanning, as the send is used "postfader" mostly.
when using the send "prefader" the correct point where the signal is grabbed by the panner is right before the fader, but after the inserts and sends.
so, when using the prefader routed send, when moving the channel-pan of cubase, should still move the sendsignal in the stereofield, too.
but that is _not_ allways the case with every sequencer mixer, as they mostly have their own way of implementing signalflow, so it could be that cubase is not exactly after the standard.
so basically:
if you want to use the reverb to create a true stereo image, the panning has to be done _before_ the reverb.
if you want the reverb to actually be panned, you have to pan the signal after the output of the reverb, if it is an insert, or you have to pan both, the output of the reverb _and_ the original signal, if the reverb is used as send.

Am I to conclude that if I have a sound panned on the track panner at say 75% left, I should also pan the reverb send to 75% left to get the most accurate spacial reverb?

if that sounds good for you, thats the way to go.
but if you want real "true stereo", don't pan the reverb, pan the signal you feed in.

[timo at artsacoustic]

Am I to conclude that if I have a sound panned on the track panner at say 75% left, I should also pan the reverb send to 75% left to get the most accurate spacial reverb?

Chiming in just to avoid misunderstandings

Right! The most spatial reverb is given when you feed it with the same panning as the dry original, sending signal.

Just imagine an orchestra, the violins sitting on the stage's left side, while you, the listener, sit in the middle of the audience. Now, let the violins play some pizzicatos and listen to the reverb. You will notice - even if you hear the violins clearly from the left - a surrounding reverb. You might hear some short early reflections from the left and some longer reflections from the right according to the arrangement of the walls. Now imagine the contrabasses on the right side of the stage, playing pizzicatos, too. You might hear the opposite: short reflections from the right, longer ones from the left - but also a complete surrounding reverb.

This is similar to what happens inside the AAR and what is called "true stereo". The AAR calculates the reverb dependent on the stereo input signal. Thus, a signal from the left will lead to another early reflection pattern than a signal from the right, but both will end up in a completly surrounding stereo reverb.

True stereo is very useful when reverberating a complete sum to give most natural sounding reverb results and not destroying the stereo image, but also when using reverb within a mix to achieve a correct stereo placement of your instruments.

So, from my side, I always suggest using stereo sends, panning the signal _before_ it gets into the reverb, instead of panning the whole reverb...

Hope, this wasn't to theoretic, though