Ampeg® SVX - Are we there yet?

[Squids]

My heart goin' boom boom boom, grab your things they're gonna take you home. (name the song homies).

Solsbury Hill, from my favorite Peter Gabriel album!

U win.

[Beardedone]

Thanks for the explanation, Squids. Anyway I guess I am not really into most rock bass sounds. And that Peter Gabriel "Boom Boom Boom" track is definitely an example of the kind of bass sound that drives me nuts. I really can't stand it I have not even tried the AT2 bass settings - unless there is a Chuck Rainey setting . .

[Killvehicle]

I just wanted to go double check that $399 price,, and thats what it says here,, but then I saw this had been announced in JAN 2005!! What is REALLY with the amp sim delays??..

That's just the MSRP. You can get it cheaper in stores and also owners of AT2 can get it even cheaper as a crossgrade. As for why it is that price, it is expensive to make for one thing. Consider it is really like 85 plug-ins in one (85 different sims in there of vintage gear in AT2) and I don't know how many in Ampeg but just one REAL Ampeg B15 is like $3K or something so since it sounds so darn close to it this is a nice "low price way in" on getting the sound of bass amps. All relative. But, then so is each person's wallet I understand. One person's expensive item is another person's bargain of the century. Is what it is I guess. We can say that about anything! I want that SSL plug-in from WAVES but to me it is expensive too... yet a REAL SSL is WAY expensive and out of reach so... I might try to get that SSL plug-in at some point.

YOuve said this twice now, about the fact that a real Ampeg is $3,000. Well of course it is but I am not in the market for a real ampeg, I play guitar, so no I would not go buy an Ampeg for $3000, BUt I would buy a cheaper plug in version. BUt not for $400 either.. And I doubt any full time BASS players would buy this to replace there real Ampeg. SO I think its clear that comparing the real thing to the software copy is not a good comparison, I could give you a laundry list of why it should be a hell of a lot cheaper than a real amp, but I guess #1 is. ITS A PIECE of software, and an amp is actually made of components that cost money!! and each and every one is assembled 1 by 1. Not copied in a burner 20,000 times.. BUt whatver, hopefully it sells for like $250, then I might be interested..

[mlyon]

I could give you a laundry list of why it should be a hell of a lot cheaper than a real amp, but I guess #1 is. ITS A PIECE of software, and an amp is actually made of components that cost money!! and each and every one is assembled 1 by 1. Not copied in a burner 20,000 times.

Okay, this is one of the sillier arguments in the "why isn't software dirt cheap" line of reasoning and shows a definite lack of understanding as to how much time (i.e., salary, benefits, overhead = MONEY) it takes to write a good software program. Not to mention the costs for distribution, manual printing, advertising, etc., etc., etc. In addition, you don't typically get free upgrades to your hardware (which is more or less de rigeur these days for software). Those free upgrades (or even low cost ones) require additional development effort and time, and need to be factored in as well. All of this expense has to be amortized over the number of copies you expect to sell, and a reasonable return on the investment needs to be added in. That's exactly what's done in hardware sales as well. The fact that a real amp is manufactured and assembled from hardware accounts for the ten-fold increase in retail price, but I would bet you that the relative margins (factored over life of the product, adjusted for burdens) would be in the same general ballpark.

Bottom line is that comparing just the cost of manufacturing the physical parts between software amp sims (CDs or DVDs) and hardware amps is nonsense.

I think we get the point that you don't like the $400 MSRP. Whether that is really the right price point for Ampeg SVX, given the effort that went into making it a product, I really have no idea one way or the other. But, I would think that if IK thought they could reasonably price it lower than that and still expect a reasonable return on their investment, they would do so. As your rhetoric so ably points out, every increase in price tag means some loss in the number of potential customers (it's a trade-off).

And...one more time, with cross-grades, eSoundz discounts, etc., you should be able to get Ampeg SVX for a lot less than $400. It's actually pretty comparable to what you pay for Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Waves GTR, etc. (in some cases, probably less).

Sorry, Squids. I was going to stay out of this to not burden the thread with this stuff, but I couldn't bite my tongue any longer after reading the last post.

Cheers,
Mark

[raintalk]

From a bassplayer point of view.

Usually you practise through an amp. You end up adjusting your playing style to get just that right sound/groove coming out.

For small venues, take a good clean, non-colored amp and you're all set.

For live, large venues, It's pretty tough to mike a bass on stage, usually the bass does a DI to the mains, and the sound guy gets to determine the tone of your sound and you loose that sound/groove you've been practicing. What you hear on-stage may not be what the FOH hears. Ampex SVX lets you practice your amp sound, and feed that same sound to the FOH. You're in control of your playing and sound the audience hears.

A laptop, and this tool are going to be a lot lighter than a big Ampeg head, and all the stomp boxes you may use. And you can essentially play a different amp for every style your band is playing.

And you ready to move into the studio without fighting the soundtech for a DI - you get to give your well practice and rehearsed amp sound as a DI feed.

$320 too much? Well you have to add in the cost of a laptop and soundcard. but then just add a power amp and cabinet. It's probably a wash compared to a real amp. It's the sound that counts. It's going to killer. Can't wait to share settings.

Still 90% of bassist just won't get what it's about, and wish they spent a little more time learning guitar.

My $.02

[putte]

.. no doubt that i will buy it, and i bet i'll be happy when i have it.
some questions for sir squidso though:

.. will i be happy running my rickenbacker through it in order to achieve some schnitzeling good 60's sound? ..

putte

[Squids]

I just wanted to go double check that $399 price,, and thats what it says here,, but then I saw this had been announced in JAN 2005!! What is REALLY with the amp sim delays??..

That's just the MSRP. You can get it cheaper in stores and also owners of AT2 can get it even cheaper as a crossgrade. As for why it is that price, it is expensive to make for one thing. Consider it is really like 85 plug-ins in one (85 different sims in there of vintage gear in AT2) and I don't know how many in Ampeg but just one REAL Ampeg B15 is like $3K or something so since it sounds so darn close to it this is a nice "low price way in" on getting the sound of bass amps. All relative. But, then so is each person's wallet I understand. One person's expensive item is another person's bargain of the century. Is what it is I guess. We can say that about anything! I want that SSL plug-in from WAVES but to me it is expensive too... yet a REAL SSL is WAY expensive and out of reach so... I might try to get that SSL plug-in at some point.

YOuve said this twice now, about the fact that a real Ampeg is $3,000. Well of course it is but I am not in the market for a real ampeg, I play guitar, so no I would not go buy an Ampeg for $3000, BUt I would buy a cheaper plug in version. BUt not for $400 either.. And I doubt any full time BASS players would buy this to replace there real Ampeg. SO I think its clear that comparing the real thing to the software copy is not a good comparison, I could give you a laundry list of why it should be a hell of a lot cheaper than a real amp, but I guess #1 is. ITS A PIECE of software, and an amp is actually made of components that cost money!! and each and every one is assembled 1 by 1. Not copied in a burner 20,000 times.. BUt whatver, hopefully it sells for like $250, then I might be interested..

With most products made, factored into the price are the costs of production, not just the raw materials. So, intellectual property (IP) and its value for what it does and what it cost to make is a part of it even if it is hardware. We're also talking list price (MSRP) so it can be had for much less through discounts in stores or crossgrades at almost half the price.

My comparison with the $3,000 bass amp is exactly the point that while most people (let's say guitarists included) are not about to go spend $3K on a bass amp they might spend around $300 (price of a cheap guitar amp) for a great sound you get from the Ampeg Plug-in. Hmmmm, might? ARE! We have a store so WE know how many people have pre-ordered Ampeg SVX just from www.esoundz.com so I KNOW it appeals! Not even a question. Whether it appeals to you, only you know of course. It also depends on budget and needs or perspective. There's no right or wrong in this debate. It could go back and forth. Value is relative. But, my thoughts on it anyway (even from an admitedly biased position).

I also don't think, for the record, that any bass players would really sell their hardware rigs and just get this. Although I don't know WHO thinks that or said that anyway. No one expects THAT! But, what I do expect and I already see it happening from talking to people like Tony Levin, Nathan East and guys like that is that most pro bass players who have ProTools or other DAW studios are getting it without question. I mean, of COURSE they are! Come on. Ampeg is the top brand in bass amps and this plug-in sounds KILLER! Bottom line there. So, I think a lot of other studio owners will (and are) ordering it because it fills a role in the set up and it is a premium choice. Sometimes we pay a little more for the really good stuff like the UAD or the SSL plugs (which are many times more the price and some of us still shell it out for it... and potentially mixes benefit as well! SOME people actually make so much money or eventually do from their music that this is just part of what it takes!!!! Years ago I took a LOAN out for a 16track that was 8 grand!!!! Investment in the tools is nothing new. Btw, that 16 track is worthless now.).

Again, I am just offering another point of view. Not saying you are wrong or anything. These are just other things to consider and some clarifications on how I see it for you or anyone else who is curious.

[Squids]

.. no doubt that i will buy it, and i bet i'll be happy when i have it.
some questions for sir squidso though:

.. will i be happy running my rickenbacker through it in order to achieve some schnitzeling good 60's sound? ..

putte

THAT is what I'm talking about!

[Squids]

I could give you a laundry list of why it should be a hell of a lot cheaper than a real amp, but I guess #1 is. ITS A PIECE of software, and an amp is actually made of components that cost money!! and each and every one is assembled 1 by 1. Not copied in a burner 20,000 times.

Okay, this is one of the sillier arguments in the "why isn't software dirt cheap" line of reasoning and shows a definite lack of understanding as to how much time (i.e., salary, benefits, overhead = MONEY) it takes to write a good software program. Not to mention the costs for distribution, manual printing, advertising, etc., etc., etc. In addition, you don't typically get free upgrades to your hardware (which is more or less de rigeur these days for software). Those free upgrades (or even low cost ones) require additional development effort and time, and need to be factored in as well. All of this expense has to be amortized over the number of copies you expect to sell, and a reasonable return on the investment needs to be added in. That's exactly what's done in hardware sales as well. The fact that a real amp is manufactured and assembled from hardware accounts for the ten-fold increase in retail price, but I would bet you that the relative margins (factored over life of the product, adjusted for burdens) would be in the same general ballpark.

Bottom line is that comparing just the cost of manufacturing the physical parts between software amp sims (CDs or DVDs) and hardware amps is nonsense.

I think we get the point that you don't like the $400 MSRP. Whether that is really the right price point for Ampeg SVX, given the effort that went into making it a product, I really have no idea one way or the other. But, I would think that if IK thought they could reasonably price it lower than that and still expect a reasonable return on their investment, they would do so. As your rhetoric so ably points out, every increase in price tag means some loss in the number of potential customers (it's a trade-off).

And...one more time, with cross-grades, eSoundz discounts, etc., you should be able to get Ampeg SVX for a lot less than $400. It's actually pretty comparable to what you pay for Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Waves GTR, etc. (in some cases, probably less).

Sorry, Squids. I was going to stay out of this to not burden the thread with this stuff, but I couldn't bite my tongue any longer after reading the last post.

Cheers,
Mark

Lol. Next time I will read other responses first. Said better by Mark than me I think. Well done.

[Squids]

Still 90% of bassist just won't get what it's about, and wish they spent a little more time learning guitar.

My $.02

Yes, that is the challenge also with guitarists. The AMOUNT of bass players and guitarists out there is HUGE! But, a large percentage of them are not making music yet on the computer. However, you never know how that can change and it is more and more enticing for them to get involved when products like this are coming out. I can't tell you how many "old school" musicians I'd talked to that are only now FINALLY making the leap to software (not instead of hardware necessarily but it is just too much fun and useful to have a computer music studio set up).

Ironically I think a lot of it has to do with word of mouth and people like you guys on KVR who know this stuff well talking to your musician friends and turning them on to this world of music gear in your computer. It is going to happen eventually though. It is leading in that direction for sure. If you don't think so feel free to place your bets. Oh it's ON!

[Melodioso]

The AMOUNT of bass players and guitarists out there is HUGE! But, a large percentage of them are not making music yet on the computer. However, you never know how that can change and it is more and more enticing for them to get involved when products like this are coming out.

Does this Ampeg SVX plug suffer from the same unacceptable problem as Amplitube 2? Which is: you can't change the presets of the plug with an external controller. Basically, you are stuck with just one preset, one sound. As a result, all the benefits from using an amp sim completely disappear. No wonder if a lot of guitar and bass are not making music with computers... Are IKMM products meant to be used in the studio only?

[Killvehicle]

I could give you a laundry list of why it should be a hell of a lot cheaper than a real amp, but I guess #1 is. ITS A PIECE of software, and an amp is actually made of components that cost money!! and each and every one is assembled 1 by 1. Not copied in a burner 20,000 times.

Okay, this is one of the sillier arguments in the "why isn't software dirt cheap" line of reasoning and shows a definite lack of understanding as to how much time (i.e., salary, benefits, overhead = MONEY) it takes to write a good software program. Not to mention the costs for distribution, manual printing, advertising, etc., etc., etc. In addition, you don't typically get free upgrades to your hardware (which is more or less de rigeur these days for software). Those free upgrades (or even low cost ones) require additional development effort and time, and need to be factored in as well. All of this expense has to be amortized over the number of copies you expect to sell, and a reasonable return on the investment needs to be added in. That's exactly what's done in hardware sales as well. The fact that a real amp is manufactured and assembled from hardware accounts for the ten-fold increase in retail price, but I would bet you that the relative margins (factored over life of the product, adjusted for burdens) would be in the same general ballpark.

Bottom line is that comparing just the cost of manufacturing the physical parts between software amp sims (CDs or DVDs) and hardware amps is nonsense.

I think we get the point that you don't like the $400 MSRP. Whether that is really the right price point for Ampeg SVX, given the effort that went into making it a product, I really have no idea one way or the other. But, I would think that if IK thought they could reasonably price it lower than that and still expect a reasonable return on their investment, they would do so. As your rhetoric so ably points out, every increase in price tag means some loss in the number of potential customers (it's a trade-off).

And...one more time, with cross-grades, eSoundz discounts, etc., you should be able to get Ampeg SVX for a lot less than $400. It's actually pretty comparable to what you pay for Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Waves GTR, etc. (in some cases, probably less).

Sorry, Squids. I was going to stay out of this to not burden the thread with this stuff, but I couldn't bite my tongue any longer after reading the last post.

Cheers,
Mark

And bite your tongue? Please if you were biting your tongue over something like this, then you have a problem. Really I dont even care ,SQUIDS made this comparison twice and NO I dont buy into it at all. I hate when I hear people say this, and talk about how the "REAL" thing costs $3000,and this is only $400. If anyone here thinks I give 2 shits about this product and what is actually its final cost you are mistaken. I dont.. IN fact I dont even think an AMPEG costs $3000, but regardless sometimes I get sick of Squids and his constant ridiculously high praise for these products. Obviously he has a connection to them, but all his talk and talk is old.. Just like it was during the months or (were it years) waiting for the AT2 to be released. ANd to me that plug was not anything groundbreaking, so continue on...

[raintalk]

I also don't think, for the record, that any bass players would really sell their hardware rigs and just get this. Although I don't know WHO thinks that or said that anyway.

Heck yah - sell that rig. Why bother when you can plug into the PA and can sound like you have a studio miked amp on-stage.

But I sure hope you can change presets with an external controller. That would just be stupid if it didn't.

[t-willy]

If anyone here thinks I give 2 shits about this product and what is actually its final cost you are mistaken.

obviously..........

lates

t-willy

[Squids]

The AMOUNT of bass players and guitarists out there is HUGE! But, a large percentage of them are not making music yet on the computer. However, you never know how that can change and it is more and more enticing for them to get involved when products like this are coming out.

Does this Ampeg SVX plug suffer from the same unacceptable problem as Amplitube 2? Which is: you can't change the presets of the plug with an external controller. Basically, you are stuck with just one preset, one sound. As a result, all the benefits from using an amp sim completely disappear. No wonder if a lot of guitar and bass are not making music with computers... Are IKMM products meant to be used in the studio only?

Actually, I have some good news on that. There will be updates regarding preset management coming. It isn't what you had thought, that I can confirm. IK wants you to buy the Stomp IO because it is amazing and is a dedicated controller ideal for AT2. It is not because they don't want you to change presets. I can't let too much out of the bag but there is even more about the presets in this free update coming anyway so think UP! Not sure about Ampeg SVX out of the gate on that part either but surely it will follow at some point.

Oh and I don't think that is why 90% of more guitarists/bassist are not on the computer... I think it is because they simply don't really know how cool it is! Yet.