Funk Equipment Set One & DR-660 Kits for DK + Released!

[jens]

But if I need electronic drums I usually either use Drumatic or Attack.

Yeah, but drum synths won't give you some of those classic drum machine sounds - especially those drum machines which are sample-based.

why not - why shouldn't I be able to make these sets on my own (if I wished so? - usually the main thing you need to apply is bit- and sample-rate reduction.

[fac]

If you now record these metallic percussion instruments and then normalize them and play them back together with a likewise normalized kick-drum etc. the cymbals are suddenly way louder than in the 'real world'. They are WAY too loud. They . I can't stand it, I can't use it. It gives me pain. It hurts my feelings.

I agree with you. However, one word: velocity.

I usually record drum parts with a keyboard (until I can afford a Roland V-Drum set), but I seldom have to select the hi-hat and cymbal notes and lower their velocities by a good amount. Then they sound much better.

Of course, with a drum sampler it's easier since you just have to tweak the level of a few pads, but my point is that it is still possible to do it with soundfonts or romplers.

[jens]

If you now record these metallic percussion instruments and then normalize them and play them back together with a likewise normalized kick-drum etc. the cymbals are suddenly way louder than in the 'real world'. They are WAY too loud. They . I can't stand it, I can't use it. It gives me pain. It hurts my feelings.

I agree with you. However, one word: velocity.

I usually record drum parts with a keyboard (until I can afford a Roland V-Drum set), but I seldom have to select the hi-hat and cymbal notes and lower their velocities by a good amount. Then they sound much better.

sorry, but that really isn't going to work with good sets. Good sets use several samples on one note/pad by applying velocity-switching. And softly hit percussion-instruments are sounding very different from strongly beaten ones. They haven't merely got a lower gain. (if it was like this where'd be the use in applying velocity-switching in the first place apart from wasting resources? )

[fac]

But if I need electronic drums I usually either use Drumatic or Attack.

Yeah, but drum synths won't give you some of those classic drum machine sounds - especially those drum machines which are sample-based.

why not - why shouldn't I be able to make these sets on my own (if I wished so? - usually the main thing you need to apply is bit- and sample-rate reduction.

Because many drum machines used samples of real (not synthesized) drums, which would be quite difficult to obtain with something like Drumatic or Attack.

Of course, one can always make their own sets by downloading the samples, loading them into DK+, and applying some compression and/or quantization (which I wish was included in DK+), but my question was: why aren't there any extra kits already built?

I also use synths for many electronic percussion sounds, but for example, hip hop drums are not quite electronic and not quite acoustic. They have this sample-based sound that you only get with err... a sampler.

[jens]

I also use synths for many electronic percussion sounds, but for example, hip hop drums are not quite electronic and not quite acoustic. They have this sample-based sound that you only get with err... a sampler.

yes, I agree about this - you mentioned Cakewalk' Velocity - Velocity has got a reverse-function - I'm missing this in DK+ - in addition to this a built-in bit- and sample-reducer and distortion (per pad) would be nice - that way it would be much easier to build your own mixed acoustic/electronic sets. I would gladly pay for these features.

[fac]

sorry, but that really isn't going to work with good sets. Good sets use several samples on one note/pad by applying velocity-switching. And softly hit percussion-instruments are sounding very different from strongly beaten ones. They haven't merely got a lower gain. (if it was like this where'd be the use in applying velocity-switching in the first place apart from wasting resources? )

Here I disagree, Jens. It's precisely the dynamics of velocity which allow one to use velocity-switching to its full potential. Of course, each drumkit is mapped in a different way, so there will be kits which respond better to lower velocities than others. But the problem resides mostly in the controller: a common keyboard will likely produce higher velocities for a hi-hat track than required. Drum pads are less sensitive, thus they usually produce lower velocities.

In the worst case, you could just separate the hi-hat/cymbal tracks and lower their volume in the mixer.

A similar problem appears when you want to, say compress the snare, but not the rest of the kit. The options are:

1) Separate the snare track so you can add any effects you want to it.

2) If your synth allows it, map the snare to an alternate output, to which you can apply a compressor)

or

3) If you drum sampler allows it, apply compression only to the pad corresponding to the snare (DK+ cannot do this, maybe more expensive drum samplers can)


I'm noy saying that one approach is better than another. I'm just saying that each source of drum sounds has its place. I use romplers, soundfonts, samplers, drum samplers, drum synths, drum loops, recycled loops, miked acoustic drums and percussions, etc. I couldn't just use DK+ for everything just as I couldn't use drumatic for everything. Sure, some sources have their limitations, no big deal.

[fac]

yes, I agree about this - you mentioned Cakewalk' Velocity - Velocity has got a reverse-function - I'm missing this in DK+ - in addition to this a built-in bit- and sample-reducer and distortion (per pad) would be nice - that way it would be much easier to build your own mixed acoustic/electronic sets. I would gladly pay for these features.

Precisely. Different tools have different features. I had DK+ before I bought Project-5, but even though I have Velocity now, which has reverse, bit-reduction, and resonant filters, I still use DK+ quite a lot, because it has (IMO) better kits, decent compressors, and the sequencer.

What I want now is just more kits. Acoustic, electronic, drum machine samples, noises, etc. I just want to give my CC a rest before I purchase the Funk set and Jeremy's Ambiental set.

[jens]

sorry, but that really isn't going to work with good sets. Good sets use several samples on one note/pad by applying velocity-switching. And softly hit percussion-instruments are sounding very different from strongly beaten ones. They haven't merely got a lower gain. (if it was like this where'd be the use in applying velocity-switching in the first place apart from wasting resources? )

Here I disagree, Jens. It's precisely the dynamics of velocity which allow one to use velocity-switching to its full potential. Of course, each drumkit is mapped in a different way, so there will be kits which respond better to lower velocities than others. But the problem resides mostly in the controller: a common keyboard will likely produce higher velocities for a hi-hat track than required. Drum pads are less sensitive, thus they usually produce lower velocities.

oh well. it seems you misunderstood me.

Say you've got a five samples of a high-hat which has been hit in five different ways:

1. very soft

2. soft

3. medium

4. hard

5. very hard


Of course all these five samples have the same loudness after they have been properply recorded/edited (normalized, noise-reduced, whatever)


Now say they are velocity-mapped like this:

1. very soft 0 - 35

2. soft 36 - 55

3. medium 56 - 80

4. hard 81 - 110

5. very hard 110 - 127


Now I explained why, if all the samples have been normalized like the snare, kick-drum etc. and their gain has not significanly been reduced in the final sample-program (e.g. SF), the full gain of the high-hat is much too loud in comparison to the kick-drum.

Now let's say for instance I've got a steady rock-beat going on. A real drummer would hit the high-hat somewhere between very hard and medium. (accents hard-very hard/ and the other hits medium-hard)

If I now programme a beat using such a drum-sample-program the high-hat is much too loud while using a velocity somewhere between (let's say) 70 and 120.

If I lower the velocity now to reduce the volume of the highhat to (let's again assume some values) 25-70 I'm using the samples very soft, soft, and medium insetad of medium, hard and very hard. And this will alter the sound dramatically and will sound extremely unrealistic. And it will take away the original purpose of velocity-mapping which is to offer the different sounds and real drummer would get out of his drums by playing.

If you aren't programming drums which attempt to sound realistic then of course it's not a big deal. But then you can as well use any cheap gm-drumset instead and save precious resources by doing so.

[liqih]

guys while you're hot on this, what you *honestly* thinks of these?
http://www.dashsignature.com/DKplus/spa ... _audio.mp3
http://www.dashsignature.com/DKplus/testsignal_1.mp3

[jens]

honestly? Not my cup of tea - not at all...

[funkychickendance]

Hmm, yeah, they're okay. If I'd been asked to guess, I'm have said the first was something run through CamelPhat, the second a microTonic preset.

If that's where you were aiming, good shot.

/funxi

[pw]

...the second a microTonic preset.

People seem to be impressed by microTonic generally, but I am not sure if you meant it as a blessing or a curse...

[liqih]

honestly? Not my cup of tea - not at all...

good to know, thanks

[liqih]

Hmm, yeah, they're okay. If I'd been asked to guess, I'm have said the first was something run through CamelPhat, the second a microTonic preset.

If that's where you were aiming, good shot.

/funxi

thanks funxi, actually I'm always aiming in (too?) many directions, <grin>

these are some extreme examples of a new fresh kit for DK+
which will be released, something I wanted to do for a long time and which is not acoustic neither vintage electronic.

There will be also "natural" noises in it,

[liqih]

good to know, strangely DK+ was intended as a vintage drum machine emulator, you know all those sample from old gears,

but it seems that more users are interested i n using it for real drums (?)

for me it's a clear and loud 'YES'. DK+ is just perfect for that - what a fantastic drum-sampler it indeed is - easy to use, feature-ladden, light on the cpu and having a big user-library (but of course I'd have a few feature-requests/suggestions for improvements )


But if I need electronic drums I usually either use Drumatic or Attack.

ok, I see, and thanks for the praise on DK+, <grin>

please post your requests in the dedicated thread