M-Audio have lied about the Prokeys88sx.

[droolmaster0]

Just to be clear - I don't see that any deliberate deception was involved. But, if I were curious as to whether a keyboard transmitted aftertouch by pressing the keys, and looked at a midi chart that ostensibly applied that that keyboard, which listed aftertouch as being transmitted, I might very well come to the conclusion that key presses transmitted aftertouch.I wouldn't be pleased to then be told, 'hah - we got you on a technicality - you can actually transmit aftertouch in some other way'. So, I'd hope that some arrangement can be made.

[dasdeck]

M-Audio is a great company with high regard for customer support. They may have made a mistake in their manual but I'm sure they'll do whatever they can to help you get the keyboard returned to make up for that mistake. I don't think bad mouthing them is a productive way to deal with the situation when you haven't given them a proper opportunity to work things out.

ijuats want to second taht in addiotion to my first rather political/slightly offensive/philosophica post as this is rellay the first thing to do imho.
but yea, the initial poster should still get a refund imho.
he seems to have done his homework.

D3CK

[beej]

The midi chart specifies which midi messages it sends. It sends aftertouch. End of story.

That is the truth I'm afraid. The MIDI implementation chart shows exactly what MIDI messages can be transmitted and received, *not* how it's done, or what onboard hardware can be set up to do it. If it can transmit aftertouch, it's irrelevant to the MIDI implementation chart whether it's the keyboard, a footpedal or any other method (although to be fair, some of these things are often clarified as notes on typical charts, to avoid this kind of misinterpretation, and this one sounds like it should have such a note.)

I can see how you came to the conclusion about the aftertouch capabilities, it's a very easy mistake to make, and a more thorough reading of the manual would have been preferable and may have clarified the aftertouch support. I'd certainly argue that you had a case for a refund, but to say the manual lied is wrong - the MIDI implementation chart is absolutely correct in this case, despite being easily misinterpreted.

[PianoPete]

Did you not try it out before you bought it? I always test drive cars and keyboards before I buy them to see how they feel. After looking at the M-Audio site it is clear to me that the SX does not have aftertouch. It is also listed as a stage piano and not a controller and nowhere in its description does it say it has AT. When one of their boards does have AT they list it right up top in the item description next to the number of keys they have (ie-the Axiom 61). Aftertouch is a selling point after all...they wouldn't hide it deep in a manual. My main controller does not have aftertouch, but I could send AT messages using a knob, wheel or fader and I guess that's what confused you. As far as a return goes it sounds to me like you've had the board a long time and have used it at gigs, both of which would void a return. I feel your pain my friend but I don't see how M-Audio is at fault.

[envoy]

I was curious, so I downloaded the manuals for both the PK88 and PK88SX. Neither goes up to 27 pages (these are the English language version), but the SX manual has the MIDI Implementation chart on page 21. It specifies *two* values for aftertouch: keys and channel. And it is interesting to note that right there it specifies that while it transmits channel aftertouch, it does *not* transmit key aftertouch.

Me, I'm not sure what that means entirely, but the fact that for the specification of whether it transmits aftertouch information directly from the keyboard is not supported, I would have at least tried out the board. I note also that in the manual for the PK88, which is a few pages shorter, it appears to not support aftertouch at all.

If I was researching this kbd, this is what I would have found right now, today.

Cheers,
Envoy

[james0tucson]

Me, I'm not sure what that means entirely

The controllers that implement key aftertouch can be counted on one hand. In fact, Mickey Mouse can count them on one hand.

[jupiter8]

Me, I'm not sure what that means entirely

The controllers that implement key aftertouch can be counted on one hand. In fact, Mickey Mouse can count them on one hand.

That's funny 'cause i know at least eight keyboards that transmits it.

[envoy]

The controllers that implement key aftertouch can be counted on one hand. In fact, Mickey Mouse can count them on one hand.

That's funny 'cause i know at least eight keyboards that transmits it.

I'm not sure if we're getting into semantics here, but james mentioned "controllers". I wouldn't be surprised if there are some "keyboards" out there - synths, samplers, whatever, but those that actually *make* sounds - that implement key aftertouch for use in the internal sound production, and also transmit it. But are you saying that there are at least 8 controllers - those that don't generate sounds on their own - that transmit key aftertouch? I'd actually be curious to see that list!

Cheers,
Envoy

[jupiter8]

Well if you define controllers like that i'd be curious to see the list as well.
Most of the ones i'm thinking of is synths.

[envoy]

Well if you define controllers like that i'd be curious to see the list as well.
Most of the ones i'm thinking of is synths.

I'm glad we cleared that up! I think it is an important distinction, because for people who already have sound sources (VSTi, other hardware instruments), there may not be any sane reason to buy a keyboard that makes sounds, you may just need the keyboard and knobs and sliders - in other words, a controller.

Cheers,
Envoy

[droolmaster0]

I was curious, so I downloaded the manuals for both the PK88 and PK88SX. Neither goes up to 27 pages (these are the English language version), but the SX manual has the MIDI Implementation chart on page 21. It specifies *two* values for aftertouch: keys and channel. And it is interesting to note that right there it specifies that while it transmits channel aftertouch, it does *not* transmit key aftertouch.

Me, I'm not sure what that means entirely, but the fact that for the specification of whether it transmits aftertouch information directly from the keyboard is not supported, I would have at least tried out the board. I note also that in the manual for the PK88, which is a few pages shorter, it appears to not support aftertouch at all.

If I was researching this kbd, this is what I would have found right now, today.

Cheers,
Envoy

Well, right - you don't know what it means. 'key aftertouch' isn't referring to aftertouch sent by the keyboard, vs channel aftertouch as not being sent by the keyboard. Key aftertouch is referring to aftertouch that is sent separately per key, as opposed to one value that is sent per 'channel'. Very, very, few keyboards have key aftertouch. Many have channel aftertouch, and the vast majority of those that do, send it from the keyboard itself.

[cptgone]

my Fatar CMS61 has AT like that too, and shows that with a label above the key which activates it. never fooled me though.

[kovacs]

M-Audio is a great company with high regard for customer support. They may have made a mistake in their manual but I'm sure they'll do whatever they can to help you get the keyboard returned to make up for that mistake. I don't think bad mouthing them is a productive way to deal with the situation when you haven't given them a proper opportunity to work things out.

I second this...I have only excellent experience with M-Audio. I don't understand all the fuzz, really.

[rockstar_not]

Well if you define controllers like that i'd be curious to see the list as well.
Most of the ones i'm thinking of is synths.

My old Ensoniq VFX-SD has key aftertouch (Vintage, 1989). I don't know of a single soft synth that responds to it, however, and my host still doesn't let it through.

Key aftertouch can be incredibly expressive. It's really too bad it didn't become a standard.

-Scott

[jupiter8]

Well if you define controllers like that i'd be curious to see the list as well.
Most of the ones i'm thinking of is synths.

My old Ensoniq VFX-SD has key aftertouch (Vintage, 1989). I don't know of a single soft synth that responds to it, however, and my host still doesn't let it through.

Key aftertouch can be incredibly expressive. It's really too bad it didn't become a standard.

-Scott

A quick google revealed there are plenty of VSTi:s that responds to poly AT.

All Linplug VSTi:s.
Virsyn Tera.
Arturia MoogModular,CS80V.
NI Reaktor,Kontakt.
Antis Augur.

There are probably more.

Edit: added to the list.