BTW would anyone be willing to help out should I get back to this? I'm taking about hosting, editing, and mapping to (at least a) free format? This would basically be me hitting each note several times trying to keep a consistent velocity from the softer and harder hits, directly from the output of my Rhodes into my Grace 101 into my Delta 66 at 16bit 44.1khz (Hollowsun had a point, 24bit is prolly far too high a dynamic range for a Rhodes cause the noise floor is well above that of 24bit). Also where would you guys want the bass boost knob? Would 0 be the best, or would you guys say 5? I'm not sure how that circuit is built, so I'm not sure what would be the most passive way to capture the raw sound of the Rhodes.
Anyway, if you guys want me to revive the project, I'm all for giving it another go over the next two weekends. Just PM me if you're seriously interested in helping with any or all of the above.
And Learjeff was right, the project was initially too much for me. I kept getting halfway up the keyboard, and then deciding, eh, let me try a different approach. By the third or fourth time I just lost interest, and since no one was bugging me to finish this I never did. Plus the logistics of this project just seemed insane. If I do it this time, there'll be no attempt at sampling with the sustain pedal, and this would be a lived in Rhodes, warts and all (including an F that's actually an octave too high).
I'm still not sure how I'd do this. All the white keys? Every key? Four or five "good-ish" hits a note? And I think my biggest thing, is that a) I'd need people to keep pestering me to finish it, but perhaps more importantly b) I'd really like for someone to take this over once the actual sampling is done and who'd be willing to put it out for free.
Learjeff, if you have any suggestions or pointers, I'd love to hear 'em as well, cause you put out a great free light sight, and people like me really appreciate that (especially now that I have an idea as to the work that went into that).
My New Rhodes: Anyone Down for a Large Free Sampleset?
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- KVRAF
- 4265 posts since 21 Oct, 2001 from my bolthole in the south pacific
Hi Funkybot,
You might profit from going to the Scarbee site and reading the pretty comprehensive notes on the preparation of the Rhodes 73 he used for the Scarbee Rhodes project. He took the signal straight off the harp, bypassing the onboard pre which is a little noisy. He suggests Eq settings to use in your DAW (post-sampler) to compensate for the absence of the the onboard pre's Eq shaping.
There is also a free tool Voxengo made called Leveller ( which was used with LearJeff's Rhodes IIRC) which will help you rank a set of samples in order of RMS power. This is a good way to make sure a set of velocity switched samples are in correct order of loudness.
You might profit from going to the Scarbee site and reading the pretty comprehensive notes on the preparation of the Rhodes 73 he used for the Scarbee Rhodes project. He took the signal straight off the harp, bypassing the onboard pre which is a little noisy. He suggests Eq settings to use in your DAW (post-sampler) to compensate for the absence of the the onboard pre's Eq shaping.
There is also a free tool Voxengo made called Leveller ( which was used with LearJeff's Rhodes IIRC) which will help you rank a set of samples in order of RMS power. This is a good way to make sure a set of velocity switched samples are in correct order of loudness.
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I wouldn't happen to have the slightest clue about the hosting issue, but I'm sure we could work something out.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't happen to know about the bass boost knob either - just as a shot into the dark I'd say leave it off.
As far as the free format goes, I'm sure we can find someone with a converter, happily transfering it into SFZ or SF2 format - the latter being worse, as one would have to repost the sample content as well.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't happen to know about the bass boost knob either - just as a shot into the dark I'd say leave it off.
As far as the free format goes, I'm sure we can find someone with a converter, happily transfering it into SFZ or SF2 format - the latter being worse, as one would have to repost the sample content as well.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Ah, as far as the amount of sampled keys goes, I don't think you need to rival Scarbee here. I'd even say minor thirds would be fine. But others may disagree.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1045 posts since 23 Jul, 2001 from Jersey Is Where America's At
Egbert, my Rhodes is a bit noisy, and I could see the potential of the noise being problematic in quieter passages with several notes being played at once, but I'm just not techically inclined. If I tried to do what Scarbee did, I'd end up breaking something 
. Plus I'm not looking to compete with Scarbee by putting out a pristine sampleset, just something a bit more lofi that I can half ass the recording off in a few days( really, I'm only semi-kidding there). Thanks for the input though.
Sascha, I'm leaning towards not doing every key this time, so yeah, maybe minor thirds are the way to go. My ideal hope is that someone would be willing to SFZ this as it's such a great format (thanks Rene), so I'm with you there too.
I'm off to bed now, but if any of you guys have some ideas you think could help with any aspect of this project, please post as soon as you can. Maybe I'll give this another shot this weekend.
. Plus I'm not looking to compete with Scarbee by putting out a pristine sampleset, just something a bit more lofi that I can half ass the recording off in a few days( really, I'm only semi-kidding there). Thanks for the input though.Sascha, I'm leaning towards not doing every key this time, so yeah, maybe minor thirds are the way to go. My ideal hope is that someone would be willing to SFZ this as it's such a great format (thanks Rene), so I'm with you there too.
I'm off to bed now, but if any of you guys have some ideas you think could help with any aspect of this project, please post as soon as you can. Maybe I'll give this another shot this weekend.
I'm sorry this post wasn't about techno.
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- KVRAF
- 4265 posts since 21 Oct, 2001 from my bolthole in the south pacific
I haven't opened one up lately (something that is not hard to do since the insides need servicing frequently if they are in heavy use) but I would expect that there is a single shielded wire running from the harp (pickups) to the Preamp.Funkybot wrote:Egbert, my Rhodes is a bit noisy, and I could see the potential of the noise being problematic in quieter passages with several notes being played at once, but I'm just not techically inclined. If I tried to do what Scarbee did, I'd end up breaking something
I would just unsolder that wire from the preamp temporarily and put an XLR socket (or a quarter inch guitar socket) on it and run a mic cable (or guitar cable - which ever suits) to a DI. Your Grace pre probably has a HiZ input so it should do the business.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
Hey, you're still here!
Sure, we'd love a raw sample set to play with. The trick is really recording all the samples. Using today's typical methods, it's very important to sample notes at different velocities, using the same velocities as you go up the keyboard. And that's REALLY hard to do.
Which is why I'm working on a program that lets you plunk away and helps sort out the wheat from the chaff, & lets you know which notes have missing velocities.
FYI, in my experience, Rhodes doesn't need every key sampled. Each key can easily cover 5 notes (its own, and two half-tones above and below). Frankly, you can even space wider than that and it still sounds great.
Also, it's more important to sample the good notes than the bad ones. Many instruments have some notes that just don't sound good for one reason or another, and if you hit one that sounds funky, just use the next key up or down a half step.
Of course, folks would love it if you would sample every note at 16 velocities. But let's get real: that's a ton of work and would barely fit on a DVD.
I say, do whatever you like and as egbert says, let the mappings bloom.
BTW, if anyone wants a set of Rhodes samples, just download mine (link above, no doubt) and have fun with the samples. If you build an instrument out of it, please just mention in the soundfont data that they were learjeff samples. The best one to get for this purpose is the big, mono, unlooped version (of course). 70MB of samples, every 4th white note sampled, up to 5 velocity layers (unfortunately, not quite enough!)
Sure, we'd love a raw sample set to play with. The trick is really recording all the samples. Using today's typical methods, it's very important to sample notes at different velocities, using the same velocities as you go up the keyboard. And that's REALLY hard to do.
Which is why I'm working on a program that lets you plunk away and helps sort out the wheat from the chaff, & lets you know which notes have missing velocities.
FYI, in my experience, Rhodes doesn't need every key sampled. Each key can easily cover 5 notes (its own, and two half-tones above and below). Frankly, you can even space wider than that and it still sounds great.
Also, it's more important to sample the good notes than the bad ones. Many instruments have some notes that just don't sound good for one reason or another, and if you hit one that sounds funky, just use the next key up or down a half step.
Of course, folks would love it if you would sample every note at 16 velocities. But let's get real: that's a ton of work and would barely fit on a DVD.
I say, do whatever you like and as egbert says, let the mappings bloom.
BTW, if anyone wants a set of Rhodes samples, just download mine (link above, no doubt) and have fun with the samples. If you build an instrument out of it, please just mention in the soundfont data that they were learjeff samples. The best one to get for this purpose is the big, mono, unlooped version (of course). 70MB of samples, every 4th white note sampled, up to 5 velocity layers (unfortunately, not quite enough!)
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- Banned
- 761 posts since 7 Dec, 2005
Could you give me a link?? I can't find this on the Voxengo website...egbert wrote:There is also a free tool Voxengo made called Leveller ( which was used with LearJeff's Rhodes IIRC) which will help you rank a set of samples in order of RMS power.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
Sorry, I missed your post above (I was at the bottom of the last page when I posted.)
I sampled every 4th white key and I think that worked great.
On the lowest notes we need as many velocities as you have the patience for. I used 5 and it's not quite enough, so consider that a minimum. But by the time you get to Middle C, 3 or 4 velocities is enough (with the top one hitting those keys HARD!) And just an octave or so above that, 2 is plenty. So, you can simplify as you go up.
About bit depth: DEFINITELY record at 24 bits!
You see, while the S/N ratio of a Rhodes when played quietly is rather high, the loudest notes (bottom keys struck HARD) are VERY loud. The S/N ratio in that case is actually quite high. And (as I'm sure Sasha will agree), you want to record all samples without adjusting the recording level. (Well, either that or you have to scrupulously note the changes in record level, in dB, for each set of samples.)
It will be a lot easier to set up to record the loudest note (usually this is in the bass end, but experiment and find out), and keep the setup constant to record all the notes. Later folks can normalize the samples or not, as they choose.
I sampled every 4th white key and I think that worked great.
On the lowest notes we need as many velocities as you have the patience for. I used 5 and it's not quite enough, so consider that a minimum. But by the time you get to Middle C, 3 or 4 velocities is enough (with the top one hitting those keys HARD!) And just an octave or so above that, 2 is plenty. So, you can simplify as you go up.
About bit depth: DEFINITELY record at 24 bits!
You see, while the S/N ratio of a Rhodes when played quietly is rather high, the loudest notes (bottom keys struck HARD) are VERY loud. The S/N ratio in that case is actually quite high. And (as I'm sure Sasha will agree), you want to record all samples without adjusting the recording level. (Well, either that or you have to scrupulously note the changes in record level, in dB, for each set of samples.)
It will be a lot easier to set up to record the loudest note (usually this is in the bass end, but experiment and find out), and keep the setup constant to record all the notes. Later folks can normalize the samples or not, as they choose.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
Oh, don't worry too much about snarks here and there (notes you start and then drop for whatever reason, or duplicates, and such). Just sample as many as you have patience for and then we can figure out how to post the results.
I'll be able to use your results to test my automapping software, which won't rely on even velocity layers.
I'll be able to use your results to test my automapping software, which won't rely on even velocity layers.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
FYI, NO, I didn't use any tools other than my soundcard, n-Track, EXSC (to do loop editing and setting filter decays, in the looped soundfonts), and tools I wrote myself.egbert wrote:There is also a free tool Voxengo made called Leveller ( which was used with LearJeff's Rhodes IIRC) which will help you rank a set of samples in order of RMS power.
Oh, and CoolEdit96 to de-noise.
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- KVRAF
- 4265 posts since 21 Oct, 2001 from my bolthole in the south pacific
I thought it might have been on LearJeff's site but perhaps it was another developer who had it. It has never been on Aleksey's site AFAIK but you could email him and ask it he is prepared to put it up.G-Ro124 wrote:Could you give me a link?? I can't find this on the Voxengo website...egbert wrote:There is also a free tool Voxengo made called Leveller ( which was used with LearJeff's Rhodes IIRC) which will help you rank a set of samples in order of RMS power.
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- KVRAF
- 7413 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
Now that's bugging me! Where on earth did I get leveler? I'm trying to remember whose website has the "thanks to Aleksey" notice...
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 Oct, 2004 from Durham, NC USA
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- KVRian
- 1469 posts since 18 Sep, 2004 from Suffolk, UK
Blimey, talk about raising a post from the dead !! LOL
I had given up all hope of Funkybot ever getting these samples to Steve. IIRC, we had some basic samples sent over that seemed promising, but then it all went quiet over there !?!?!
Would still be interesting to get this one done, but I've heard too many other good Rhodes now, so this would have to be somewhat "unique" in it's offering.
I had given up all hope of Funkybot ever getting these samples to Steve. IIRC, we had some basic samples sent over that seemed promising, but then it all went quiet over there !?!?!
Would still be interesting to get this one done, but I've heard too many other good Rhodes now, so this would have to be somewhat "unique" in it's offering.
