I think it is an interesting project and even if it may seem dead it will remain a good idea. Although the interface not really impressed me at first glance I see where it's targeting at and think it could possible become a powerful tool.
Let's see what will happen, I personally thought about if I could myself be fit enough to help get this going, but my schedules are just too packed to get involved into any bigger projects (and that would be more of a "fun project" for me from a priority point of view).
bump anyway.
developers.. live MIDI performance VST (Zyklus/Direct)
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- KVRAF
- 3948 posts since 8 Sep, 2003 from germany
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- KVRist
- 261 posts since 14 Apr, 2006
It's a great idea indeed. But I still have no idea how many people are actually interested in this idea/concept. The reason I ask this is that Bill is rapidly losing interest. If a lot of people make a statement eg sending Bill an email in the style of "Bill, please gives us this program" the motivation could rise again. Remains the problem of actually coding it. Such a task is very time consuming and Bill is right that it is too big for one person. He does it in it's spare time too, you know? But what about a jointventure like other coding projects as in SourceForge.net where Bill is the leading man, but with help from everybody who cares? I would like to hear other people's opinion about this whole project.
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- KVRian
- 620 posts since 24 Nov, 2004 from BANANA REPUBLIC OF ITALY
I care about the project and I'm after it since two years as the least.Wrote to Bill some times but never had a reply so far.
I tried to submit this project to some manifacturers including Arturia as amainfacutrer, and its main developers, but never had a real feedback.
I believe this is a revolutionary project, it only has to get a slightly user friendlier interface but it is a wonderful tool . Badly wish it could be implemented into something like EnergyXT.
Unfortunately I can't code but I'm in for everything else you could need.
Bill, feel free to count me in.
I tried to submit this project to some manifacturers including Arturia as amainfacutrer, and its main developers, but never had a real feedback.
I believe this is a revolutionary project, it only has to get a slightly user friendlier interface but it is a wonderful tool . Badly wish it could be implemented into something like EnergyXT.
Unfortunately I can't code but I'm in for everything else you could need.
Bill, feel free to count me in.
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 10 Aug, 2005
I'm still very keen for this project, I really wish I could help but alas I have no coding skills to offer. It would dismay me if it never saw the light of day. Please, if you have the talent/resources and/or skills, help Bill!
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- KVRian
- 620 posts since 24 Nov, 2004 from BANANA REPUBLIC OF ITALY
One question for Bill: does this machine have perhaps a need to be "de-vangelized"? I mean, if Direct was built under the exact specifications that Vangelis asked in order to match his own technique of execution, does the new project need to be revised in order to get a kinda "mainstream" accessibility?
Thx for your reply
Thx for your reply
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- KVRist
- 260 posts since 2 May, 2004
Have you considered talking to OpenSource developers? Get an overview on Linux Audio. A big project sometimes needs the best free thinking people.
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- KVRist
- 261 posts since 14 Apr, 2006
I'm glad to see there's still some respons to this Improvisor thing. A few notes from the last mails:
The interface. I think this is one of the least problems. Every development environment has great tools to design an interface in a matter of minutes so to speak. The interface more or less follows the current state of a program in the design phase and will probably change frequently during this stage so it's hard to tell what it will look like at the end.
Interesting other manufacturers. This is a difficult one. Most of them want to be in control of what is the future of their product. Bill had great difficulties to explain what the concept is really all about. One of them thougt it was an audio program! Also there is a marketing issue. If I be honest I think the demand of such a program isn't that big. So manufacturers aren't in line to develop such a thing.
The "de-vangelized" issue. Altough there are maybe some similarities with the Direct system, which it's own quirks, the design concept of Improvisor is much more a "mainstream" program and in some areas just better. Bill has a pretty clear perspective of what is reasonable or not. And he is restricted not to use the Direct principles in the first place, because that was his agreement with Vangelis.
About my suggestion for an "open source" project, that's entirely me on a personal title. Bill isn't aware (at this time) of such an idea, until maybe now if he reads this forum. I don't know if he likes that suggestion or not. The reaction could be no, too many people involved, endless discussions etc. All he really needed was an experienced programmer/volunteer who could take off some of the workload in the first place. But when there are no volunteers, what about an open source project, I thought? If no
experienced programmers stand up, what about a dozen less experienced people, with litte but some programming background? I have no idea if this could work however. I'm wishfull thinking here. All input is welcome.
And let's not forget sending Bill an email for spiritual reasons.
The interface. I think this is one of the least problems. Every development environment has great tools to design an interface in a matter of minutes so to speak. The interface more or less follows the current state of a program in the design phase and will probably change frequently during this stage so it's hard to tell what it will look like at the end.
Interesting other manufacturers. This is a difficult one. Most of them want to be in control of what is the future of their product. Bill had great difficulties to explain what the concept is really all about. One of them thougt it was an audio program! Also there is a marketing issue. If I be honest I think the demand of such a program isn't that big. So manufacturers aren't in line to develop such a thing.
The "de-vangelized" issue. Altough there are maybe some similarities with the Direct system, which it's own quirks, the design concept of Improvisor is much more a "mainstream" program and in some areas just better. Bill has a pretty clear perspective of what is reasonable or not. And he is restricted not to use the Direct principles in the first place, because that was his agreement with Vangelis.
About my suggestion for an "open source" project, that's entirely me on a personal title. Bill isn't aware (at this time) of such an idea, until maybe now if he reads this forum. I don't know if he likes that suggestion or not. The reaction could be no, too many people involved, endless discussions etc. All he really needed was an experienced programmer/volunteer who could take off some of the workload in the first place. But when there are no volunteers, what about an open source project, I thought? If no
experienced programmers stand up, what about a dozen less experienced people, with litte but some programming background? I have no idea if this could work however. I'm wishfull thinking here. All input is welcome.
And let's not forget sending Bill an email for spiritual reasons.
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- KVRist
- 260 posts since 2 May, 2004
Yes, OpenSource could indeed lead to a lot more organisation being needed. Yet it would make sure its up to the latest standard and open for new things to come.
It would however move it out of the "we make a super-special program for experts that I know personally"-corner.
I guess if you really catch the drift, this could turn out to be a project that gathers all sorts of midi-related tools in a library. Add some GTK+ and wire it to open music apps and you have a suite enhancement that can turn many things into improvisation facilities.
I really like the idea. Do you think he would be interested in somebody else thinking on his stuff or is he really just looking for developers to get "his" idea done?
It would however move it out of the "we make a super-special program for experts that I know personally"-corner.
I guess if you really catch the drift, this could turn out to be a project that gathers all sorts of midi-related tools in a library. Add some GTK+ and wire it to open music apps and you have a suite enhancement that can turn many things into improvisation facilities.
I really like the idea. Do you think he would be interested in somebody else thinking on his stuff or is he really just looking for developers to get "his" idea done?
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- KVRist
- 261 posts since 14 Apr, 2006
The main and only reason why Bill is looking for other people for joining this project is simply the amount of developing time that's involved in such a project, time he simply doesn't have. If it was a simple task he already would have done it. He's not looking for someone to get "his" idea done. Don't forget, it wasn't him to come up with this. It was a thread on the SOS forum where questions were asked about the original Zyklus sequencer and the Direct system. He simply stepped in at a certain point. Gradually the thread started to move in a certain direction for developing a new kind of system. Bill was very helpfull explaning stuff and as good will he offered to go for it, but with the exception he would get help in some form. I think he's open for usefull suggestions. He's very aware however that such a program is not everybodies cup of tea. Compromises are to be made, but he is open for that, and I'm sure he's willing to take what's necessary just to make the program work. If there was help...
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- KVRian
- 620 posts since 24 Nov, 2004 from BANANA REPUBLIC OF ITALY
First humble suggestions from me_
1. extend the controlling standards to the OpenSoundControl interface ( 32 bit resolution, simply 4 times better than MIDI ) in order to allow multi standard usage ( particularly useful if the tool is used together with a dedicated controller )
2. Allow the program to be used as a host where one or more tracks can load other midi tools such as ERA or EXT
3. The most important thing to me: try to find out the most intuitive GUI possible : I suggest to largely use the color code as it was implemented into some well-known synthesizers as the CS-80 ( which Bill should have known when in Paris or Athens )
1. extend the controlling standards to the OpenSoundControl interface ( 32 bit resolution, simply 4 times better than MIDI ) in order to allow multi standard usage ( particularly useful if the tool is used together with a dedicated controller )
2. Allow the program to be used as a host where one or more tracks can load other midi tools such as ERA or EXT
3. The most important thing to me: try to find out the most intuitive GUI possible : I suggest to largely use the color code as it was implemented into some well-known synthesizers as the CS-80 ( which Bill should have known when in Paris or Athens
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 333 posts since 23 Apr, 2003
I submitted this to a few independent developers I thought might bite .. eXT, SonicBytes, SKNote .. they are doing some related projects, ERA, Phrazor but have their own projects and vision to work on. Wish Karma would finally develop into a VST (though it's a different beast). GuruOne and Chordspace Playa look to have potential.
There is a whole layer of control between the control interface (keyb, knob, fader etc.) and the instrument (VST or other) which has been largely ignored. This is the layer that may allow us to generate/shape highly complex music and parameters live.
Using the keyboard and alternative controllers to control VST's in a linear fashion is great, but to bring it to the next level, either you use MAX, PD, KeyKit, MusicWonk and create something yourself (KeyKit/MusicWonk unfortunately not VST - so no saved states in song), but I would rather have a very cool VST MIDI/OSC meta-instrument like this developed that could be learned and mastered. We have performance audio FX and lots of VJ tools to tweak directly by our hands in realtime, or by LFO's/ENV's, but creating and shaping MIDI/OSC sequences/controller data fx on the fly is somewhat limited save for coding yourself modules for a modular environment. The ability to morph states like Audiomulch & Melohman using meta controls would make this device very powerful as well. All in the name of making interesting spontaneous electronically controlled live performed music, instead of well sequenced, pre-recorded tracks. Insert human energy computer enhanced Direct. Integrate multi-scale/controller controllers likeTablet2MIDI, Wmidi, P5 glove, SKNote Theremin, etc., you have a very expressive instrument.
Other possibility is to code this for the OpenSource MIDIBox hardware platform using MIOS. I prefer the VST of course (to use in XT2)
I'm interested in any such application, whether it is the Zyklus Performer, Karma, Chordspace Playa, ERA, or any powerful mutation thereof .. use a clean skinnable XT2, Phrazor or Live interface as reference.. and you're golden.
Regarding Zyklus Performer or any mutation, it would be also nice to have an FX shape mode to perform over/effect/alter both existing and live input controller data.
I can't wait to be taken to a higher level of control and experimentation by a new meta-control instrument that can be used to trigger/warp the sound of any VST chains we have live.
Anyways, for now the solution is to create your own meta-instrument in a modular env., until maybe the OS movement or other inspired developer takes Bill's ideas and runs with them. MusicWonk is a very cool program btw that should be checked-out. I'm emailing the developer now to see if there is any possibility of it becoming a VST FX plugin, as well as having the ability to host VST's internally eXT style. I'll point him to this thread as well.
There is a whole layer of control between the control interface (keyb, knob, fader etc.) and the instrument (VST or other) which has been largely ignored. This is the layer that may allow us to generate/shape highly complex music and parameters live.
Using the keyboard and alternative controllers to control VST's in a linear fashion is great, but to bring it to the next level, either you use MAX, PD, KeyKit, MusicWonk and create something yourself (KeyKit/MusicWonk unfortunately not VST - so no saved states in song), but I would rather have a very cool VST MIDI/OSC meta-instrument like this developed that could be learned and mastered. We have performance audio FX and lots of VJ tools to tweak directly by our hands in realtime, or by LFO's/ENV's, but creating and shaping MIDI/OSC sequences/controller data fx on the fly is somewhat limited save for coding yourself modules for a modular environment. The ability to morph states like Audiomulch & Melohman using meta controls would make this device very powerful as well. All in the name of making interesting spontaneous electronically controlled live performed music, instead of well sequenced, pre-recorded tracks. Insert human energy computer enhanced Direct. Integrate multi-scale/controller controllers likeTablet2MIDI, Wmidi, P5 glove, SKNote Theremin, etc., you have a very expressive instrument.
Other possibility is to code this for the OpenSource MIDIBox hardware platform using MIOS. I prefer the VST of course (to use in XT2)
I'm interested in any such application, whether it is the Zyklus Performer, Karma, Chordspace Playa, ERA, or any powerful mutation thereof .. use a clean skinnable XT2, Phrazor or Live interface as reference.. and you're golden.
Regarding Zyklus Performer or any mutation, it would be also nice to have an FX shape mode to perform over/effect/alter both existing and live input controller data.
I can't wait to be taken to a higher level of control and experimentation by a new meta-control instrument that can be used to trigger/warp the sound of any VST chains we have live.
Anyways, for now the solution is to create your own meta-instrument in a modular env., until maybe the OS movement or other inspired developer takes Bill's ideas and runs with them. MusicWonk is a very cool program btw that should be checked-out. I'm emailing the developer now to see if there is any possibility of it becoming a VST FX plugin, as well as having the ability to host VST's internally eXT style. I'll point him to this thread as well.
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- KVRian
- 620 posts since 24 Nov, 2004 from BANANA REPUBLIC OF ITALY
I believe that, even going with a different approach to the problem , none of the manifacturers you mentioned has nailed the principle of the Improvisor: I mean, many of these tools still force you to a rather difficult interaction and most of all , all of the above miss some fundamental things:
1. Creative approach: the Improvisor doesn't need to be pre programmed
2. Musical rendition: Direct already had a "secret" which is not so hard to find out: when you build an arrangement from many instruments, it could be the case that something can go wrong with a chord or things like that: well, Direct had this ability to "save the day" by a peculiar logic that was able to output all in something which was musically affordable; this doesn't mean Direct prevented errors or forced to a particular execution, it just "sniffed" what could be the execution like afterwards, sort of a musical assistance rather than auto-arrangement. Of course Improvisor can't grab this secret in whole, because Vangelis could feel upset since he paid good money for Direct . But a good part of this secret implemented into Improvisor could sound good enough, after all not everybody own Vangelis' technique
3. Many of the above mentioned tools focus on many but not on all the aspects covered by the Improvisor: this has extended MIDI manipulation abilities but it behaves also like on "forte" , in a way you can change and route and do whatever you want with your MIDI rack.
These are only 3 reasons which make the program deserving to be coded, though the real one deserving to be coded since many years!
1. Creative approach: the Improvisor doesn't need to be pre programmed
2. Musical rendition: Direct already had a "secret" which is not so hard to find out: when you build an arrangement from many instruments, it could be the case that something can go wrong with a chord or things like that: well, Direct had this ability to "save the day" by a peculiar logic that was able to output all in something which was musically affordable; this doesn't mean Direct prevented errors or forced to a particular execution, it just "sniffed" what could be the execution like afterwards, sort of a musical assistance rather than auto-arrangement. Of course Improvisor can't grab this secret in whole, because Vangelis could feel upset since he paid good money for Direct
. But a good part of this secret implemented into Improvisor could sound good enough, after all not everybody own Vangelis' technique3. Many of the above mentioned tools focus on many but not on all the aspects covered by the Improvisor: this has extended MIDI manipulation abilities but it behaves also like on "forte" , in a way you can change and route and do whatever you want with your MIDI rack.
These are only 3 reasons which make the program deserving to be coded, though the real one deserving to be coded since many years!
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