Pianoteq - Looks Like new Modelled Piano

[egbert]

I'm curious. When I hit the same chord repeatedly the polyphony goes up. If this is really physically modeled, shouldn't the polyphony remain the same as I am only hitting the same strings over and over?

It is similar to the situation you have with a drum or cymbal in a big drum sampler like DFHS or BFD.

If you hit the open hi hat cymbal once, you excite it and you will trigger direct mic samples OVH and room samples. If you hit it again
1) the already playing ambient samples are not affected - they are still bouncing around in the room and will continue to do so just as the real sound would decay in a drum studio
and
2) the cymbal itself (sound source) does not go from silent to vibrating as it did the first time, it goes from one mode of vibration to a more complex one. If you limit a cymbal (eg open hi hat or ride) to one voice it sounds completely unnatural.

The hammers restriking a piano string (even if the dampers are active ie pedal up and below the upper section) do some analogous things - they trigger a new pulse of direct sounds from the string that is probably still vibrating, from other sympathising strings and they also add a fresh attack to the room reverb element of the sound.

[Pianoteq]

The hammers restriking a piano string (even if the dampers are active ie pedal up and below the upper section) do some analogous things - they trigger a new pulse of direct sounds from the string that is probably still vibrating, from other sympathising strings and they also add a fresh attack to the room reverb element of the sound.

This is a good description of what we call dynamic phase variation.

Here is a little comparison between Pianoteq and a high-class sampled piano, just to show you the impact of this feature:

Pianoteq: http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/dynamic-p ... iation.mp3
The other: http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/sampled-piano.mp3

Niclas Fogwall
Sales & support
Pianoteq
www.pianoteq.com

[DavenH]

I'm curious. When I hit the same chord repeatedly the polyphony goes up. If this is really physically modeled, shouldn't the polyphony remain the same as I am only hitting the same strings over and over?

If it's really physically modeled the polyphony should be at a constant 88.....

Victor.

This view of 'modelling' isn't quite right. If you're not approximating something, then you have a perfect replica, and it ceases to be a model. Also, it defeats the purpose of a model to not approximate, optimise, exclude, or 'fudge' whatever you can whilst retaining as much of the original character as possible. If you didn't, you'd have as many restrictions as what is being modelled.

Now on a completely anal note, the polyphony would have been multiples of 88, not just 88, as the piano notes have tails...

[MotorMind]

hmm heard the mp3's, sounds as realistic a piano as donald duck farting. this is crap.

Bullshit. I am sure that nay-sayers like you wouldn't be able to hear the difference between this and a real piano, especially in a mix.

[Cyrosis]

hmm heard the mp3's, sounds as realistic a piano as donald duck farting. this is crap.

Bullshit. I am sure that nay-sayers like you wouldn't be able to hear the difference between this and a real piano, especially in a mix.

dont get angry man, this isnt perfect yet. Personally I am using the Art Vista steinway samples, I have compared the 2 on identicle midi's and find the Pianoteq to be very clearly the loser as far as realism. It of course is still impressive for being fully moddled but as its been said, I dont believe it comptetes with some of the really nice sample libraries.

[Improv]

Certainly a worthy effort, but personally I wouldn't choose this over a sample-based product if I wanted to create a convincing recording of a classical piece.YMMV

Just out of curiosity, which sample-based product? Any one in particular? PMI? Sampletekk (White Sister, Seven Seas, TBO, White Grand, Black Grand), Bardstown? Other? I just started looking at sampled pianos and there do seem to be quite a few to choose from!

[Cyrosis]

Certainly a worthy effort, but personally I wouldn't choose this over a sample-based product if I wanted to create a convincing recording of a classical piece.YMMV

Just out of curiosity, which sample-bsed product? Any one in particular? PMI? Sampletekk (White Sister, Seven Seas, TBO, White Grand, Black Grand), Bardstown? Other? I just started looking at sampled pianos and there do seem to be quite a few to choose from!

Well, I just mentioned what I prefer, but theres already a ton of threads on piano libraries, lets keep this one Pianoteq

[Motion]

Had a word from MODARTT earlier who mentioned that all sliders and pedals already support midi cc and are learnable....right click and what I originaly thought was just an info tab there is in the bottom right corner a small arrow which lets you access the CC.

I have had a good old browse around the MODARTT site.At first I thought the add ons were just highly detailed settings from the GUI controls but noticed they are a meg plus so couldn't be Fxps,after asking they are in fact virtual restorations from a project they are involved in called the KIVir...
www.pianoteq.com/kivir project (Keyboard Instruments Virtual Restoration),and the Pianoteq itself plays a big part of this with respect to allowing you to play the equivalent digital model using a controller to a Pianoteq and therefor experience the tonal character and essence of what these old beauties are about,despite being physically restored they are just to delicate to let people bang away on.

MODARTT plan on creating many of these for historical and pleasure purposes for the Pianoteq and put them next to the originals in museums so people can as mentioned before get some idea of them.They say the Pianoteqs underlying algorithms have no modification but modifications of all parameters including the ones that are not accesssible through the interface are ajusted to get these instruments as close as possible.

The two that are available for download to users are the Schmidt and Schoffstoss,although I have no real experience of the originals to compare them to,its nice to dabble in a bit of realtime history being brought back to life without the need of a sampling library.

It seems that the Pianoteq is also an advanced training tool.

From MODARTT:

It is an innovating tool for music creation and can be useful not only to musicians but also to piano manufacturers and piano tuners for simulation and training purposes.

So it seems its 3 in one...not bad at all.

[djdorian]

Had a word from MODARTT earlier who mentioned that all sliders and pedals already support midi cc and are learnable....right click and what I originaly thought was just an info tab there is in the bottom right corner a small arrow which lets you access the CC.

I have had a good old browse around the MODARTT site.At first I thought the add ons were just highly detailed settings from the GUI controls but noticed they are a meg plus so couldn't be Fxps,after asking they are in fact virtual restorations from a project they are involved in called the KIVir...
www.pianoteq.com/kivir project (Keyboard Instruments Virtual Restoration),and the Pianoteq itself plays a big part of this with respect to allowing you to play the equivalent digital model using a controller to a Pianoteq and therefor experience the tonal character and essence of what these old beauties are about,despite being physically restored they are just to delicate to let people bang away on.

MODARTT plan on creating many of these for historical and pleasure purposes for the Pianoteq and put them next to the originals in museums so people can as mentioned before get some idea of them.They say the Pianoteqs underlying algorithms have no modification but modifications of all parameters including the ones that are not accesssible through the interface are ajusted to get these instruments as close as possible.

The two that are available for download to users are the Schmidt and Schoffstoss,although I have no real experience of the originals to compare them to,its nice to dabble in a bit of realtime history being brought back to life without the need of a sampling library.

It seems that the Pianoteq is also an advanced training tool.

From MODARTT:

It is an innovating tool for music creation and can be useful not only to musicians but also to piano manufacturers and piano tuners for simulation and training purposes.

So it seems its 3 in one...not bad at all.

kik a$$!

[pdxindy]

hmm heard the mp3's, sounds as realistic a piano as donald duck farting. this is crap.

Bullshit. I am sure that nay-sayers like you wouldn't be able to hear the difference between this and a real piano, especially in a mix.

I think I could still tell the difference, but this modeling is quite good

Some of the demos are impressive. This is certainly a step (or two) forward for modeled piano.

[InfiNeat]

I'm curious. When I hit the same chord repeatedly the polyphony goes up. If this is really physically modeled, shouldn't the polyphony remain the same as I am only hitting the same strings over and over?

It is similar to the situation you have with a drum or cymbal in a big drum sampler like DFHS or BFD.

If you hit the open hi hat cymbal once, you excite it and you will trigger direct mic samples OVH and room samples. If you hit it again
1) the already playing ambient samples are not affected - they are still bouncing around in the room and will continue to do so just as the real sound would decay in a drum studio
and
2) the cymbal itself (sound source) does not go from silent to vibrating as it did the first time, it goes from one mode of vibration to a more complex one. If you limit a cymbal (eg open hi hat or ride) to one voice it sounds completely unnatural.

The hammers restriking a piano string (even if the dampers are active ie pedal up and below the upper section) do some analogous things - they trigger a new pulse of direct sounds from the string that is probably still vibrating, from other sympathising strings and they also add a fresh attack to the room reverb element of the sound.

Thanks Egbert. Great explanation. I feel much smarter now

[Improv]

Certainly a worthy effort, but personally I wouldn't choose this over a sample-based product if I wanted to create a convincing recording of a classical piece.YMMV

Just out of curiosity, which sample-based product? Any one in particular? PMI? Sampletekk (White Sister, Seven Seas, TBO, White Grand, Black Grand), Bardstown? Other? I just started looking at sampled pianos and there do seem to be quite a few to choose from!

Well, I just mentioned what I prefer, but theres already a ton of threads on piano libraries, lets keep this one Pianoteq

Excuse me-I was asking what sample-based piano that he would choose over Pianoteq. You seem to have misread what I posted.

It was very on topic as it goes to the quality of Pianoteq vs. it's competition. Like it or not, Pianoteq has to convince us that it has some thing the sample-based pianos don't. I merely tried to determine which sample based pianos he was talking about.

Understand now?

[Teksonik]

Thanks for your vote of confidence Tek; but anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt. It's all subjective to the listener; and that being said, I didn't like the demos on the site.

It may be subjective to the listener but what better ears than a piano tech. Your opinion of the demos says it all for me, thanks.

[Cyrosis]

Certainly a worthy effort, but personally I wouldn't choose this over a sample-based product if I wanted to create a convincing recording of a classical piece.YMMV

Just out of curiosity, which sample-based product? Any one in particular? PMI? Sampletekk (White Sister, Seven Seas, TBO, White Grand, Black Grand), Bardstown? Other? I just started looking at sampled pianos and there do seem to be quite a few to choose from!

Well, I just mentioned what I prefer, but theres already a ton of threads on piano libraries, lets keep this one Pianoteq

Excuse me-I was asking what sample-based piano that he would choose over Pianoteq. You seem to have misread what I posted.

It was very on topic as it goes to the quality of Pianoteq vs. it's competition. Like it or not, Pianoteq has to convince us that it has some thing the sample-based pianos don't. I merely tried to determine which sample based pianos he was talking about.

Understand now?

Well, I still see a question like this just turning into "I like XXXX more!" and it will look just like all other piano threads. I do however see some value to the question, and if it were me, Id choose any other sample library that I have ever heard in my life (maybe not the default FL-Keys sample pack, but thats only a maybe).

[Tea]

Could anyone direct me towards a high-quality piano library thead, by any chance...