VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?

[krraqk]

Oh by the way, I just downloaded the Godin xtSA manual and according to it, there's no coil tap on the humbuckers. Too bad.

So not sure what they meant when they said "glassy split-coil sounds in the second and forth position" on their web page.

Really, in positions 2 and 4, they SHOULD just tap one coil of the humbuckers because the middle pickup then becomes the other coil.

I have read a lot of user reviews in harmony-central about this guitar and many are saying that it splits the humbuckers when combined with the central pickup. Maybe what the manual say is that you can split the humbuckers independently.

[AdmiralQuality]

Oh by the way, I just downloaded the Godin xtSA manual and according to it, there's no coil tap on the humbuckers. Too bad.

So not sure what they meant when they said "glassy split-coil sounds in the second and forth position" on their web page.

Really, in positions 2 and 4, they SHOULD just tap one coil of the humbuckers because the middle pickup then becomes the other coil.

I have read a lot of user reviews in harmony-central about this guitar and many are saying that it splits the humbuckers when combined with the central pickup. Maybe what the manual say is that you can split the humbuckers independently.

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/revi ... /xtSA/10/1

The sounds are very good, but I find them a bit more mellow than my Carvin which has coil splitters.

The single coil and the two coil-split positions sounded really good.

This guy is probably confused. He means the humbucker WITH the single in positions 2 and 4. The Godin manual clearly states that both coils of the humbucker are used.

The 5-pos selector is cool because, in positions 2 & 4, it splits the humbuckers and gives you two single-coils like a Strat. Very nifty. Good tones, clean or distorted.

Again I think this is just a misconception. Unless the manual is dead-wrong.

In terms of wish list features, I would like to see Godin start offering coil splitters for the humbuckers or at least start using pickups with three conductor wires, so it can be done later if desired.

This guy knows. Sounds like he's opened it up and looked too.

This is the problem with Harmony-Central reviews, some people are misinformed.

xtSA manual: http://www.godinguitars.com/xtsa05.pdf

See Diagram 1. They label the coils from top to bottom AB, C and DE. And the 5 Position switch selects AB, ABC, C, CDE, and DE. BUT... they also say

A special 5-way switch setup makes it possible to get extra meaty humbucker tones and glassy splitcoil sounds.

So I can see why people would get confused! I don't know, maybe the manual diagram is wrong?!?

Simple test to see... if it hums in positions 2 and 4 then it's not using split coil because combining both coils of a humbucker with a single won't cancel the hum from the single.

Anyone got one who can test this for us? I'll check next time I'm at Long and McQuade too. It's still an awesome guitar, but I don't think those Godin pickups are quite as nice as some of the name brand ones (though they sounded acceptable, but they look cheap, and the magnets didn't look like Alnico 5, rather chromed pole pieces, probably with a ceramic bar magnet below them ). I kind of figure if I ever got one, I'd be swapping all those pickups out before long, and then I'd definitely wire it to use split coil for positions 2 and 4. Doing that would make this a SUPER guitar.

They also make this more expensive model http://www.godinguitars.com/godinlgxtp.htm with Seymour Duncan humbuckers, but they left out the middle pickup. It's cosmetically a bit nicer, but WAY less of a guitar without that single coil middle pup.

[nikp2000]

_

Thats very interesting... why would onboard sounds do better than something under MIDI control? Are you using MIDI in MONO mode on multiple channels? Or regular (and insufficient for guitar) POLY mode on a single channel?

Most synths that are multitimbral should be able to do this actually, even if they don't support MIDI MONO mode explicitly, you could just set up 6 monophonic sounds on 6 successive MIDI channels and that should do it. No? Or even just set up 6 instances of your favorite VSTi playing the same monophonic patch, route your GR controller to all of them, and put each one on a successive MIDI channel.

Its not a question of mono mode or some synth configuration (although that would improve the tracking with external sounds of course), the question is that the internal sounds are triggered at a pre-midi stage so the response is much more accurate. The external midi out is know to be worse than the internal ones. So yes its need to tweak your synths with mono mode (or emulate it, etc) and other tweaks like match the pitchbend, etc. but the external midi is not as good as the internal sounds playing I know it first hand, I have a GR30.

Internal gr20 sounds have no noticeable latency, but I think all the pitchbend ccs coming across slow down the midi stream, and then you have to add in your system's latency as well. If you split channels for each string it adds a little too. I never tried this, but maybe if a midi cc thinner plug could be inserted in front of the vsti it may be able to trigger quicker. Also, at least on systems that use a hex pickup, latency increases with string diameter, so higher strings trigger faster. This realy messes with strumming, although fingerpicking works well as long as your playing is clean. On top of all this, guitar players generally use a lot of percussive techniques which will not translate at all to a quitar synth and are easy to play by habit. Because of all this I usually just record the sounds from the gr20. I also record the midi stream, but it is generally unusable without some major work (cc thinning, quantizing, deglitching) For guitar synth soloing I've had the best luck playing patches on just the first and second strings. Overall, I think recording midi from a guitar controller hits a big snag in the host before the vsti problems even come int play. A 'guitar controller' mode in a host would be something I'd like to see.

Nick

_

[AdmiralQuality]

That makes sense Nick. Yes, I'd expect the MIDI stream to be pretty thick with 6 channels all with constant pitchbends going (and what else, does it send volume as pressure or something like that?)

System latency not a problem for me. I'm down to under 3 ms. MIDI maybe adds another ms. But I can see things getting clogged up, yes. Is the GR20 and older device, or a newer one? Built in synth? I'm only familiar with the pure controller GI-10 and GI-20, as I kind of figured the last thing in the world I'd want is another sound generating module? (I have an old ESQ-1 that I think would make a GREAT MIDI guitar sound generator. Using the 6 channels with mono sounds technique. )

Anyway, I hope to join the guitar synth club ASAP. But in the mean time, if you guys can send me some demo MIDI, the best one will win free copies of all my software. Details:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=147535

[nikp2000]

_

The gr20 is roland's newer guitar synth, but it is really just a gr33 with less features. The gr33 lets you pitch shift each string for instant open tunings but the gr20 doesn't. I had an old IVL Pitchrider guitar MIDI controller and the gr20 is way more responsive. If you just use the onboard sounds, which are editable to a small degree, and there is a user bank you can save them to, the gr20 is a great device, but it's just never going to be as flexible a controller as a keyboard. I think you have to go into guitar synths realizing that it's a different beast. There is a guitar midi group in Yahoo groups you might want to check out.

Nick

_

[RunBeerRun]

I recall Roland saying there was a new pitch-detection system starting w/the Gr20, I beleive it, I had a Gr33 and there was low-E latency, none with my current GR20.

Gr20 sounds great, hammer ons pull offs, slides. When the gr20 goes midi out into computer or module, none of that just one note for every time you pick. I read the GI-20 manual, and that claims hammer ons and such, so I assume it's better in that regard(MIDI-wise).

I prefer my Yamaha EZ-AG digital guitar, it's easy to play more accurate lines, there's no string velocities, just buttons on a fretboard.

[AdmiralQuality]

Gr20 sounds great, hammer ons pull offs, slides. When the gr20 goes midi out into computer or module, none of that just one note for every time you pick. I read the GI-20 manual, and that claims hammer ons and such, so I assume it's better in that regard(MIDI-wise).

Check out page 28 of your GR20 manual. Are you sending MIDI in Mono Mode or in Poly Mode? And do you have a device that can respond to Mono Mode? And/or can you set up monophonic sounds on each of 6 MIDI channels?

I'm having a hard time believing that it doesn't send just as much performance data out on MIDI as it uses internally, it's just that the built in sounds are constructed to use whatever controllers its sending, where most synth patches won't (but you should be able to tweak them to support it!)

AH! Check out page 29! It sends MIDI ENV FOLLOW Data that you should route to the VCA/VCF of your synth!!!

I know that, however great you say the built in synth in the GR20 sounds, I'd be disappointed in it and would want to control REAL analog synths with my guitar, as well as VSTis.

And please, enter my contest and send me some MONO mode MIDI.

[AdmiralQuality]

Another question for everybody: Does anybody make a Guitar Synth controller yet that has a USB MIDI connector? That would solve any bandwidth issue with 6 channels full of constantly changing pitchbend and controller messages. Manufacturers, are you listening?

AH! The Roland GI20 DOES have a USB connector! Well there you go, it shouldn't be possible to clog THAT up with too many messages.

[selfconstruct]

_
I never tried this, but maybe if a midi cc thinner plug could be inserted in front of the vsti it may be able to trigger quicker.
_

On the GI-20, there are Bend Data Thin and Receive Control Data Thin functions. Perhaps there is something similiar on the GR-20.

[AdmiralQuality]

_
I never tried this, but maybe if a midi cc thinner plug could be inserted in front of the vsti it may be able to trigger quicker.
_

On the GI-20, there are Bend Data Thin and Receive Control Data Thin functions. Perhaps there is something similiar on the GR-20.

I downloaded all the manuals today and nope, GR-20 doesn't have that feature. Also very surprised to see the bend range is hard set on the GR-20 to +/-24 semitones (2 octaves). Many synths won't let you bend that far! I mean really, except for divebombing on the whammy bar, when do you ever bend a guitar string 2 octaves!?!

I'm very impressed with the specs on the Roland GI-20. The Axon AX-100 looks pretty nice too but no USB like the GI-20 offers. With MIDI streams as thick as you'd get from a guitar controller, I think USB would make a huge difference and nullify any thinning issues.

[des]

I have two of the GI-20's that I use with my Chapman Stick and they work ok. My understanding about the Axxon's was that they actually sampled a harmonic of the root note allowing them to lock on faster.. Unfortunately I never had the chance to try one with my system...and needing two of them,the price put it out of reach.

However the GI-20's work fine - and I use the midi ouput ports, not the USB. When I first got the GI-20 the USB driver would only support one GI-20 on a system. I believe the latest drivers support two so I might try the USB i/o again.

A few things about MIDI guitar. If you want to have the best response from the system, you must play clean by which I mean your picking and fingering must be accurate. Sloppy technique will cause false triggers. Something you can do to help reduce false triggering is to put a mute on the strings. On Chapman Sticks this is done by putting a piece of the fuzzy velcro (loops) on the fretboard at the first fret. The fuzzy material tends to dampen excess string vibrations. Alternatively some people will use a womans hair "scrunchy" and keep it on the headstock. When they want to play midi guitar they roll the scrunchy over the first fret. When done they roll it back out of the way.

Dave
www.ambientstickist.com

[AdmiralQuality]

I have two of the GI-20's that I use with my Chapman Stick and they work ok. My understanding about the Axxon's was that they actually sampled a harmonic of the root note allowing them to lock on faster.

Yeah, and they claim to have trained a neural net to recognise the note. This technique also gives them a rough idea of where the string is being picked, so they get yet another controller from that.

I really wonder how well that works across different brands of guitars, different string guages, string materials, etc.

I guess they sell a preferred pickup as well, though they seem to support the 13 pin as well.

I still think I'll get the Roland, when I'm ready. I'm not much of a guitar player, I don't NEED guitar synth, but I want it understand the market. I'm going to make sure my upcoming synth Poly-Ana supports guitar fully (oh BTW, how many strings on a Chapman stick? Do you run it in MONO mode?), and might have some more products up my sleeve for MIDI guitarists too.

[des]

I'm going to make sure my upcoming synth Poly-Ana supports guitar fully (oh BTW, how many strings on a Chapman stick? Do you run it in MONO mode?), and might have some more products up my sleeve for MIDI guitarists too.

I have two Chapman Sticks with midi. I have a 10 string that has 5 strings on the melody side and 5 on the bass side. This Stick has midi pickups on both sides. My other Stick with midi is a 12 string instrument - 6 melody and 6 bass but only has a midi pickup on the melody side - I am hoping to add midi to the bass side in the near future.. The bass side on the 10 string definately has a slight delay on the lower strings when triggering but if I choose the right synth patch it can work out well. The bass side is tuned in 5ths and has a wider pitch range then a normal 6 string bass so the higher notes trigger fine. I sometimes run in mono mode..it really depends on if I want individual string bends or not. Sometimes for pad sounds you don't want that - it's better for melody type sounds.

I've been using Guitar Rig quite a bit lately and on the NI user forum I put up a list of neat features I would like to see. One of them was a hex pickup input mode so you could run true polyphonic octave and pitch shifting. The GK pickup system is really only 6 magnetic pickups and it delivers an analog signal to the GI-20 for conversion to midi or to my V-bass or VG-88 which process the 5 or 6 signals seperately - but in parallel. Personally I would LOVE to see a VST V-bass / VG-88! Basically they are multi effects processors but you have control over each string and how it is processed. Doing this you can get really nice 12-string emulations, pads, etc...and since there is no midi conversion involved it can happen very quickly. The drawback is that it does require 6 channels of audio (or 12 in the case of my 12 String Stick) which can be a taxing on a CPU...

Dave
www.ambientstickist.com

[AdmiralQuality]

Well, you could already have a VST processing of the separate channels, you just need an adaptor that takes 13 pin and splits it up into 6 line outs. Then you just run that through 6 channels of a normal audio interface. Not really understanding how G.R. would need to get data from the Hex pickup, as G.R. only processes one channel of audio anyway. Wouldn't you just split the 13 pin into the 6 separate channels, set up inputs for them on whatever interface you use (assuming it's at least 6 channel) and then run 6 instances of G.R.?

Anyway, this is all VERY interesting stuff! And thanks for the scrunchie tip!

Oh, also, I think false-triggering could also be suppressed if people used the Env Follow messages in MONO mode. Then if you happen to make a quiet note by mistake, it'll be quiet on the synth too? (Of course, that only works if you can accept having a guitar-like amplitude envelope on your synth sound.)

[des]

Well, you could already have a VST processing of the separate channels, you just need an adaptor that takes 13 pin and splits it up into 6 line outs. Then you just run that through 6 channels of a normal audio interface. Not really understanding how G.R. would need to get data from the Hex pickup, as G.R. only processes one channel of audio anyway. Wouldn't you just split the 13 pin into the 6 separate channels, set up inputs for them on whatever interface you use (assuming it's at least 6 channel) and then run 6 instances of G.R.?

yea I could process the channels seperately - run multiple instances of whatever VST processor I was wanting to run. You need to access 6 (or 12 in my case) individual channels in and that means running in Live, Sonar, Saw Studio or other mixer/host. That starts eating into your CPU resources. You need the interface too, which could be home-made but I believe there is one out there in the market that works as a break-out box. Guitar Rig 2 can technically process two channels - I regularly run the Melody and Bass sides of my Sticks through GR and have seperate processing on each side. So you could probably get a way with three (or 6)instances of it..I'm not sure though if each instance can have seperate inputs and if it would merge the ouputs into the same or if I would have to run into a seperate mixer. Plus GR is not very resource friendly. An application specific VST could solve a lot of these problems...not to mention that the user interface would/could be easier to use....

Dave
www.ambientstickist.com