Muzys = Abandonware?

[Ja.x]

.. why would i sell it i've pretty much got everything i could ever want, materialistically speaking...

Those who can afford (like yourself, it seems), can give their work away for free: there's no rule against. But what if you had to pay your bills and make a living out of it, like some people here in KVR have? When one day it will be your case you'll talk diferently, I'm sure.

And if you're building hardware for a living and someone approaches you with a new project you'll want to be sure that person really owns the design, that it's not a rip off and that you'll not be sued later for building something that actually was designed by someone you never met before.

[sadhaka]

I suppose it was a bit of a hasty statement, but i stick by it.
i am a bit of an idealist, but as much as most dream of success and having money, wouldn't it be better to aim for something higher than money?
realistically i know we live in a world dominated by the powerful, by that i mean financially, as that is the dominating factor in the majority of the world. sad as it is. and that's my point, it's sad being ruled by money, you're motivation for making your programs and selling them is it money or personal need for a specific task? or both? if for money, why? because you need to survive or because you want more for luxury? i don't expect you or anyone to agree with my way of thinking, it's my opinion that we live in a corrupt society where money allows you to get away with practically anything. if you're fortunate to have it. i prefer to live modestly and honestly as possible, i find money clouds your judgement just as emotion does. good luck to you and your programming i wish i had the ability to do that!i feel capable of it but i haven't the faintest idea where to start. if i could do this i'd love to be able to give it for free, it'd be a great compliment on my work. if you use your work for your career, fair enough but my original point was why be a complete prick and buy RIGHTS to something just to eliminate the competition? at least that's the only reason i think they did it.

if things were more open people would be shamed for such an act, thus they either wouldn't do it again or quite probably wouldn't do it in the first place knowing the consequences. tell me this - how many people out there would boy cott the company who bought the rights to muzys and ditched the program?

believe it or not i understand the implications of what i've said and of my opinions in general. i've spent alot of time studying philosophies of various kinds but it's hard to convey things this way.

i also understand the points you've made and the difficulty life imposes, or rather the oppression the government force us to live under!

[quote=chris roberson]And how hard will I hunt down and legally go after people when I think they are nearing my design?[/quote]

really? why? is there really a need to persecute somebody for stealing your work? i know right from wrong, but if somebody used your work and made something from it your greed would be the cause of your grief. as well as being peeved cos you didn't think of their idea! i stick by what i've said until it's proven otherwise!!!

this isn't an attack on you or anyone else, i apologize if your offended.

-^-



enough ranting, eh!

[sadhaka]

.. why would i sell it i've pretty much got everything i could ever want, materialistically speaking...

Those who can afford (like yourself, it seems), can give their work away for free: there's no rule against. But what if you had to pay your bills and make a living out of it, like some people here in KVR have? When one day it will be your case you'll talk diferently, I'm sure.

And if you're building hardware for a living and someone approaches you with a new project you'll want to be sure that person really owns the design, that it's not a rip off and that you'll not be sued later for building something that actually was designed by someone you never met before.

believe me i'm not well off, far from it. i have been before but found it distracting and it made me more miserable to have money. but that's me.


thanks for your opinion though

[Scotrick]

my currently 'worthless,' two cents, as I'm an American who has made the 'mistake,' of studying English and writing poetry and choosing as my day job 'teaching.'


Without Money, which is only a concept, we end up with Barter. Barter quickly leads to Money, as history has shown. It is the management of the money and what societies value that is interesting to me.

Given the Capitalistic system I currently reside in, I bless and bless and praise those of you on KVR who work hard and give products away for free (and for that matter those that charge only a fraction of what large developing houses charge, and even those people I bless, because I wouldn't know how to program myself out of a brown paper sack). I am a sap, I admit it, but the generosity of the people who work here giving out advice and free synths and effects truly amazes me.

If I were in charge of things, and I was stuck with a money based system, here's who would get paid the most:
Doctors, Policemen, Firemen, because these people save our bodies.
Teachers and Artists because these people salve (not save) our souls.

It is a constant puzzlement to me why elementary and kindergarten teachers are paid the least of all the teaching professions... these are the people our children are first taught by... they should be paid the most and also be the best educated.

Meanwhile, Mr. Sadhaka (sorry if I misspelled your screen name) I agree with you in theory but don't know how to convert the world over, and you are writing to KVR people who are some of the most generous and self sacrificing I have ever known.

Be gentle please. Already we've had developers leave and give up due to ingratitude and the harsh realities of trying to be generous and still make a living at the same time.
FWIW.
My sincerest thanks to you all. I know I'm overflowing here, but I've moved and only just gotten the internet back, and coming back here after being away for a month has reminded me of how amazing this place is.
patrick vickers

[sadhaka]

thanks patric.

i was actually only trying to get a point across, not to argue my case. but it seems out there they are stuck in a system of belief and can't seem to understand mine. i don't mind comments good or bad, i would like to apologise again as mr vickers is right you do a great work and have helped me in the short time i've been here and that help is most gratefully appreciated.

i suppose barter will lead to money because there will always be someone who who WANTS something for what they do. and probably will not take less than is wanted. life isn't a simple matter of give, it has to have take added. sad fact but there's always someone who gets paranoid that they are being taken advantage of, or that they are!!

Thanks for your veiws all. and thanks KVR you've helped me and i wouldn't have even been able to get into computer music if not for them.

[pljones]

I see copyright like the lock on my frontdoor: it's there to stop sad assholes who'd otherwise steal what I've worked for. Call it materialistic or capitalistic but I don't like being stolen from. As it happens, I release all my code under the GNU Public License. Without copyright, this would have no legal standing. It protects me from people pretending they've written my code whilst still allowing me to freely share my code and - should I perish - allows others to continue developing it.

(Note that applies to my code, not necessarily code I've written for money for others. That's their code, subject to contract...)

Ideally, we'd live in a world of peace and harmony...

[james0tucson]

I see copyright like the lock on my frontdoor

With that approach, you will never break away from the view that copyright and property laws are equivalent, and thus, will never understand copyright.

[james0tucson]

barter

Barter forces you to be part of the process of getting the things you need. If you cannot be part of this process you do without things.

[sadhaka]

if you feel that strongly about protecting what you've worked so hard for that's up to you, it's yours after all.
don't you think it gets a bit ott to the point that you can't even record so much as a single drum sound without copyright restrictions.

i do like your attitude though and that's what i'm getting at, it's yours you say what happens to it, but if someone were to copy part of it for their own program, track, whatever,you'd kickup about it. that i don't agree with.

example: you write a program, say, a new vst synth that has unique characteristics that no-one has thought of. you got patents, copyright for the code or whatever is necessary. maybe you sell loads of these 'synths'. if someone then copied that program exactly, but changed the gui to look different/better, i'd feel that that is a worthy reason for protecting your program. especially if you make a living doing such things as this. but for the majority, their programs aren't commercial, or if they are, not on a great scale. Luna is an example, no doubt this will turn out to be better than muzys due to the experience jo has gained.

anyway, this new synth. if for example this person/company copied a single part for their own production, the main part that made yours special, they then advanced your ideas, why should that be theft? if they just blatantly copy your ideas and redesign it without your consent they're c**ts.
do you know how to share something without expectations of a result from that sharing?

i don't own much, and i like it that way. i spent about £4000 on hardware over the last few years, not much for you lot maybe, but i had a good job with shit wages! a year ago i saved £1100 for a roland mc-909, big mistake!!! it took me a year to save for by selling every other bit of hardware i had and then saving a tenner a week!! i wish i bought a pc years ago for music. it's cheaper and there's loads of stuff free on the net thanks to people like KVR that's easy to find. i think you need to update that database though, i came across a fair few duds!!

i downloaded everything i could as i may not be on the internet much longer, but whatever i use i will donate what little i can to the bods who designed them cos it's well deserved. they deserve alot more than i can give but they give freely knowing they may get nothing, that is brilliant, and a great way to be. i don't care much for possessions, yeah it's great having a pc and music equipment but it's only a passing interest for me, an expensive one granted. but maybe that's why you lot can't understand my ideas on giving.

you obviously feel deep inside a great loss if you were to give a program away you've worked a couple of years on, i'd be glad to. i know maybe if i was in that position it'd be different, but you don't know me i may try to get something for it but not that hard. once i got a few no's i'd give it freely without regret. but that's me, not you.

by the way pljones, thankyou for the help you gave me, the info helped alot. cheers.


how many people have i pissed off?:shrug: sorry!

[sadhaka]

barter

Barter forces you to be part of the process of getting the things you need. If you cannot be part of this process you do without things.

like food, cloths, water? not really possible.

but i bet most of what is in your home is unnecessary, if i lived in a bedsit, god help me, everything i own would fit in one room, apart from my pushbike!! is that sad? maybe but i don't feel the need to hoard things, what about you?

[Chris Roberson]

if you feel that strongly about protecting what you've worked so hard for that's up to you, it's yours after all.
don't you think it gets a bit ott to the point that you can't even record so much as a single drum sound without copyright restrictions.

i do like your attitude though and that's what i'm getting at, it's yours you say what happens to it, but if someone were to copy part of it for their own program, track, whatever,you'd kickup about it. that i don't agree with.

example: you write a program, say, a new vst synth that has unique characteristics that no-one has thought of. you got patents, copyright for the code or whatever is necessary. maybe you sell loads of these 'synths'. if someone then copied that program exactly, but changed the gui to look different/better, i'd feel that that is a worthy reason for protecting your program. especially if you make a living doing such things as this. but for the majority, their programs aren't commercial, or if they are, not on a great scale. Luna is an example, no doubt this will turn out to be better than muzys due to the experience jo has gained.

anyway, this new synth. if for example this person/company copied a single part for their own production, the main part that made yours special, they then advanced your ideas, why should that be theft? if they just blatantly copy your ideas and redesign it without your consent they're c**ts.
do you know how to share something without expectations of a result from that sharing?

i don't own much, and i like it that way. i spent about £4000 on hardware over the last few years, not much for you lot maybe, but i had a good job with shit wages! a year ago i saved £1100 for a roland mc-909, big mistake!!! it took me a year to save for by selling every other bit of hardware i had and then saving a tenner a week!! i wish i bought a pc years ago for music. it's cheaper and there's loads of stuff free on the net thanks to people like KVR that's easy to find. i think you need to update that database though, i came across a fair few duds!!

i downloaded everything i could as i may not be on the internet much longer, but whatever i use i will donate what little i can to the bods who designed them cos it's well deserved. they deserve alot more than i can give but they give freely knowing they may get nothing, that is brilliant, and a great way to be. i don't care much for possessions, yeah it's great having a pc and music equipment but it's only a passing interest for me, an expensive one granted. but maybe that's why you lot can't understand my ideas on giving.

you obviously feel deep inside a great loss if you were to give a program away you've worked a couple of years on, i'd be glad to. i know maybe if i was in that position it'd be different, but you don't know me i may try to get something for it but not that hard. once i got a few no's i'd give it freely without regret. but that's me, not you.

by the way pljones, thankyou for the help you gave me, the info helped alot. cheers.


how many people have i pissed off?:shrug: sorry!

It's theft even if it's that one part because it's the fundamental part of your creation that they stole. I remember ARP synths lost a suit against Moog for the filter they put into one of their synths, because it was specifically Moog's design. Sure you can't copyright the idea of a low-pass filter, but you can copyright the arrangement of modules that you have to create a specific low-pass filter, e.g. Moog's ladder filter arrangement.

That's the point.

[sadhaka]

i understand what the point is, i just think it's over the top and has made peopletoo possessive of their creations. that's my opinion as i keep stating. sorry if you don't like that i'm not trying to antagonise anyone.

i'm gonna watch a film now, ta ta til the morrow cometh

[M'Snah]

Unbelievable.

After reading this thread, and being totally convinced... I went to get a haircut, and told my barber that he should do it for free, because his pride in his skill should be enough payment. Of course he agreed.

Then I went to the local butcher, same story, I got all my meat for free.

We're really on to something here

[james0tucson]

barter

Barter forces you to be part of the process of getting the things you need. If you cannot be part of this process you do without things.

like food, cloths, water? not really possible.

I don't disagree, but I have bartered water. My land has a well that feeds the co-op water supply in my hometown. I do not ask that they pay me for it, I traded water for other consideration.

I have seen the barter system work among an alternative society, but food was not part of the economy. In order for this sort of thing to work, everyone involved has to be into it.

[pljones]

I see copyright like the lock on my frontdoor

With that approach, you will never break away from the view that copyright and property laws are equivalent, and thus, will never understand copyright.

Do you understand metaphor? Do you understand the GPL? "like" is not "the same as" or "equivalent to", necessarily. Copyright merely deters people. The lock on my front door merely deters people. Those determined enough will still take what is not theirs to take without my permission.

by the way pljones, thankyou for the help you gave me, the info helped alot. cheers.

No problem. The thirst for knowledge is a noble thing and we should all be helping each other by sharing rather than hindering development by hiding. But such is life...