KVR Audio

selfconstruct · Post by **selfconstruct** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:53 pm

Did someone say breakout box? http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LIN ... s/breakout

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:06 pm

selfconstruct wrote:Did someone say breakout box? http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LIN ... s/breakout

Ooooooooooooooh. Ok, now I'm wondering if I couldn't write a software pitch to MIDI converter for 6 channel (well, lets say n channel

)

Save the $400 for a GI-20!!?!

des · Post by **des** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:15 pm

selfconstruct wrote:Did someone say breakout box? http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LIN ... s/breakout

I have not seen that one before. The RMC unit is nice - but pricey... I saw another break-out box - can't remember where I saw it though..I think it was at the V-bass forum.. Used a printed circuit board inside.

Dave
www.ambientstickist.com

krraqk · Post by **krraqk** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:00 pm

des wrote:
....
Personally I would LOVE to see a VST V-bass / VG-88!

Yeahh, a wild dream for sure (I doubt very much Roland would do that ever), but a wonderful one!

I own a vg88 and I tend to dream about the next incarnation of it, its a so magic device...

Never tried a V-bass, but I have a great curiosity about it, how is it? is at the level of the Vg88?

des · Post by **des** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:11 pm

krraqk wrote:
des wrote:
....
Personally I would LOVE to see a VST V-bass / VG-88!
Yeahh, a wild dream for sure (I doubt very much Roland would do that ever), but a wonderful one!

I own a vg88 and I tend to dream about the next incarnation of it, its a so magic device...

Never tried a V-bass, but I have a great curiosity about it, how is it? is at the level of the Vg88?

I would say that in some respects the V-bass is ahead of the VG-88 - but that depends on what you are looking for I guess. It's synth features are more developed I think. Interestingly enough, if you are familier with the GR300 patch that seems to be in just about every Roland synth on the market - it's in the V-bass but not the VG-88... I believe it was also in the GT6 as well. That suprised me. In fact in a lot of ways I thought that the GT-6's synth patches were better then the VG-88's. The 88 doesn't do a flute patch well - or not as well as the Gt6 does. But the Nylon guitar model in the 88 is sweet. I have not played around with the 88 in a while so it may be that it just needs to be edited.

I don't use the distortion patches much - and that is one area that the 88 does very well.

Dave
www.ambientstickist.com

krraqk · Post by **krraqk** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:48 pm

The synth sound generation from the guitar (and not with midi convesion) is just the area where I think the next Vg88 cand do a BIG JUMP and there its absolutely not delay and no only that, but much more, the sounds generated by the VG88 (and others as you point) are played with all the normal techinques of the guitar, just like a guitar, they traslate ALL your playing...

Thats just the dream I have about the next magic Roland step in this area, a new and exciting instrument.

For me Roland is the king in this area, sadly they are slooow bringing new things.

Well until that happens I will keep dreaming.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:07 am

Just read (some of) the VG-88 manual so I see what you're talking about now. It comes with a divided "GK" pickup that you attach to your guitar, then you can run into the 13 pin input and it will do retuning, pitch tracking (with all kinds of waveforms), envelope following, and filtering on each string... letting you make synthesizer-like sounds that track the performance much more exactly than trying to re-interpret it to MIDI and then get a synth callibrated to respond to it just right.

You can of course do this already in a VST, but only monophonically. You need the divided pickup to deal with each string seperately, as there's just no way to pull the seperate string signals apart when they're merged.

So Roland couldn't just come out with a VST version of the VG-88, as they have to sell the pickup and breakout box too... it would probably end up having to be a whole USB interface, Guitar Rig style, or they'd only be able to sell to people with at least 6 input channels on their audio interfaces (and you'd still need a 13 pin to 6 line-out breakout box!)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! I smell a niche that needs filling! Hmmmmmmmmmmm......

krraqk · Post by **krraqk** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:46 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:Just read (some of) the VG-88 manual so I see what you're talking about now. It comes with a divided "GK" pickup that you attach to your guitar, then you can run into the 13 pin input and it will do retuning, pitch tracking (with all kinds of waveforms), envelope following, and filtering on each string... letting you make synthesizer-like sounds that track the performance much more exactly than trying to re-interpret it to MIDI and then get a synth callibrated to respond to it just right.

You can of course do this already in a VST, but only monophonically. You need the divided pickup to deal with each string seperately, as there's just no way to pull the seperate string signals apart when they're merged.

So Roland couldn't just come out with a VST version of the VG-88, as they have to sell the pickup and breakout box too... it would probably end up having to be a whole USB interface, Guitar Rig style, or they'd only be able to sell to people with at least 6 input channels on their audio interfaces (and you'd still need a 13 pin to 6 line-out breakout box!)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! I smell a niche that needs filling! Hmmmmmmmmmmm......

I think the technology behind the VG88 is a very complex and very unique one, it generates the sound with some type of physical modelling but using the sound generated by the exapickup or almost some information captured from it. It seems a hybrid technology.
The main sound generation work is around to model a guitar (woods, strings, pickups, etc) and then inject it to amps, effects, etc.
This approach has been done also by Line6 (many years later) but you need a special guitar, etc.
The Vg88 also "generate" some synth and unusual and very insteresting sounds with this technology and its the area that I would want to see greatly improved and developped in order to create some new, inexisting and exciting instruments to be played with a conventional guitar.
obviously connect all that with the computer would be a great thing but I doubt Roland would do that.
I dont know a vsti that would do that actually, but would be great if there where somehting capable of that.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:51 am

Oh I don't know, I read what it does and I think I understand how to make one. Don't take their marketing hype too seriously, it's all just DSP.

Only problem is the breakout box. I may have some news to post on this someday, but for now I've got other fish to fry (but that fish is going to support MIDI Mono mode guitar inputs! And great to hear that Chapman stick has maximum of 12 strings, because that just happens to be the maxumum number of voices Poly-Ana has!

)

krraqk · Post by **krraqk** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:50 am

I only take in consideration my own experience playing and editing the VG88 for around 3 years.
I have the sensation that you dont realize how complex is the vg...
But yeah, I would want very much to see more things like the VG, so I wish you all the luck with it.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:55 pm

krraqk wrote:I have the sensation that you dont realize how complex is the vg...

Complex? Heh, just wait till you hear Poly-Ana.

Anyway, I know Roland synths well. And "COSM" (which is a meaningless marketing term that means "whatever DSP techniuques we had to use to make this product") I've got COSM amp sims in my Microcube actually (WHAT A PRODUCT!!!) and I know the sounds of Roland digital synths well. (Sold my XP-80 because it sounded "syrupy".) Don't get me wrong, Roland make great stuff, but I'm a sound NUT, and they just don't quite get the quality of old analog gear like some companies (ahem) are doing in the VSTi world.

des · Post by **des** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:38 pm

I think that the V-processors are complex when compared to the standard guitar FX processors that are common place today. But if you look at it as a multi-channel processor then it really is no different then any host/VST system. Roland could very well do the multi-channel VST if they wanted to...but heck they won't even put out a basic sound editor/librarian for the V-processors.

I still have my XP-80 - I have a bank of sounds that I have tweaked over the years that are my 'go to' sounds when I am working out ideas. It's also a pretty decent controller...and it's paid for. I also have an AN1x, K2000, Wavestation SR and M3R and an RM50. I hardly use them any more though - it's just easier to fire up a softsynth.

Roland could take something like the GI-20 and make a multi-channel audio interface with it. It already connects via USB to the computers. The 6 channels of audio are already in there. They would have to put some decent A/D's though... They could probably get their Edirol division to do the hardware.

Dave
http://www.ambientstickist.com

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:50 pm

des wrote:I think that the V-processors are complex when compared to the standard guitar FX processors that are common place today. But if you look at it as a multi-channel processor then it really is no different then any host/VST system. Roland could very well do the multi-channel VST if they wanted to...but heck they won't even put out a basic sound editor/librarian for the V-processors.

Well again, even *I* could do it... if only I could split out the 13 pin connector.

I have no 13 pin guitar yet though so I won't be getting to experiment with this for some time to come.

I still have my XP-80 - I have a bank of sounds that I have tweaked over the years that are my 'go to' sounds when I am working out ideas. It's also a pretty decent controller...and it's paid for. I also have an AN1x, K2000, Wavestation SR and M3R and an RM50. I hardly use them any more though - it's just easier to fire up a softsynth.

I absolutely LOVED the voice architecture in the XP-80, it was just the sound of it's filters that I didn't like. (EDIT: even wide open, it still sounded filtered. Another thing I didn't like was they try to cram too many samples on their expansion cards, rather than giving you a few GOOD sounds. So too-short looped samples without any velocity layering. I'm sure their new generation of synths is better for this though.) It seemed to me that all the sounds sounded the same... very... syrupy is all I can say to describe it. It didn't cut through the mix or a band well.

Roland could take something like the GI-20 and make a multi-channel audio interface with it. It already connects via USB to the computers. The 6 channels of audio are already in there. They would have to put some decent A/D's though... They could probably get their Edirol division to do the hardware.

Dave
http://www.ambientstickist.com

Yes! A product like that would be great, but you have to wonder if they'd do it as it would open up the world of VSTi guitar processor to all us hungry little guys who try harder and can move faster than the big behemoth.

One place Roland CAN beat us little guys is in hardware manufacturing though (hell, that's why they sell unneeded DSP cards required to make their soft synths work!

)

krraqk · Post by **krraqk** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:14 pm

AdmiralQuality wrote:
krraqk wrote:I have the sensation that you dont realize how complex is the vg...
Complex? Heh, just wait till you hear Poly-Ana.

Anyway, I know Roland synths well. And "COSM" (which is a meaningless marketing term that means "whatever DSP techniques we had to use to make this product") I've got COSM amp sims in my Microcube actually (WHAT A PRODUCT!!!) and I know the sounds of Roland digital synths well. (Sold my XP-80 because it sounded "syrupy".) Don't get me wrong, Roland make great stuff, but I'm a sound NUT, and they just don't quite get the quality of old analog gear like some companies (ahem) are doing in the VSTi world.

You just seem to keep talking about effects and amps but the main and essential thing about the Vg is another history (guitar and synth modelling from the guitar signal), I have tried to explain it a bit, but seems that I cant explain well, anyway the inet is plenty of info and examples about it which would explain much better.

I know very well also the "vsti world" a dynamic creative and very innovative people doing amazing things, while the big hardware "papas" cant react quick enough. All that is well know, but I don't see nothing similar to the VG88 (even at mono level), so if it exist please let me know.

I keep thinking Roland has something very special here and hope they evolve this concept very much. I wish you or someone would surprise me with something similar.

About your poly-ana I cant say nothing, are there some audio demos to hear something? Just a though its not extremely saturated the analog emulation vsti world?

des · Post by **des** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:21 pm

Here's a project for ya!

Reproduce the Synth section on the GT6!

Basically what Roland does is convert the audio to a control signal that controls an osc. It is mono - so no need to worry about the hex pickup or breaking out the audio channels. The waveforms are relatively limited...I think Sin, pulse pipe and maybe brass...that may even be more then actually there. There was nice flute simulation (didn't really sound like a flute) that was fun to play and do melody lines with!

If you could do a nice inteligent pitch shifter that would work on chords, that would be great too!

Times like these I wish I had gotten more into programming....

Dave
http://www.ambientstickist.com

VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?