VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?

[AdmiralQuality]

Another thing that might be affecting tracking accuracy for you guys is your intonation set-up. You'll want this as good as you can get it, take it into the shop if you don't know how to do it yourself... and note that when you change string type/brand the guitar needs its intonation set up again (I even find it drifts a bit during the life of the strings... I do my intonation after the strings have been on and played for a at least a few days.)

[Sascha Franck]

They absolutely are. This is how it works on 99% of synths and samplers.

I'm gonna try this out.

Maybe on some samplers you can bypasss the filter. But on synths the filter is so integral that it's virtually never left out.

While I agree that on most standard subtractive synths the filter is an integral part (because they usually don't have much else to offer), the statement per se is not true, sorry.
There's a WORLD of synths with switcheable filters, many of them coming with patches that don't use them either - and no, they're not samplers.
ES2, Absynth, FM7, Oatmeal, Crystal, RCGAudio's synths, U-Hes synths, just to name a few. Yes, they're no standard subtractive synths, but they're nothing esoteric either.
Just because some synths don't come with switcheable filters doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

In addition, on some synths it seems, when you set the cutoff and resonance controls accordingly (on a LP filter: cutoff all the way opened, resonance all the way down), the filter will be de-activated automatically, thus consuming no further resources.

I haven't seen any that do this. Even mine doesn't as 1. it's very rare to have an analog synth sound with wide open filter, and 2. the filter cutoff is almost always under some additional modulation, from the envelope, keyboard or LFO.

Again, you're talking about standard subtractive stuff. On other synths you can create tons of interesting sounds without even coming close to the filter section.

You're really confused here Sascha. Filters are ALMOST ALWAYS a per voice feature. I can't think of a VSTi where they're not. To use one filter across many voices... well first of all most VSTis wont support this... and secondly, it would give all the voices the same dynamics...

As said before, I'm gonna check the issue out further, but regarding dynamics, that's plain nonsense. Of course, filters *do* distribute to the dynamics of a patch, but saying there'd be no dynamics if the filter wasn't working per voice is utter nonsense. Not sure about you, but to my ears, dynamics are made up from differences in levels as well - and it'd be new to me that without a filter, things such as velocity response would be lost as well...

I mean, just think about it, if all voices are sharing the same filter, then which voice's envelope is going to control the filter's cutoff modulation?

The last played one. Thinking about this, you might be right regarding the per voice functionality of most filters, I just tried with a few synths, and the filter, if modulated by velocity, did indeed seem work on a per voice base.

[AdmiralQuality]

What I'm saying Sascha, is even if you COULD get a synth to use one common filter across all it's voices (which few if any of the ones you mentioned offer -- though some do have an HPF that's shared by all voices, Juno-106 style) ALL THE VOICES WOULD THEN SHARE THE DYNAMICS IMPARTED BY THAT SINGLULAR FILTER.

So what you originally suggested (use the same filter on all synth voices to save power) is impossible. Unless you have the filter as a standalone effect that you can route the outputs of separate instances of the synth to.

That's all I'm saying. Not that there'd be NO DYNAMICS... but that the dynamics (as imparted by the filter, which in subtractive synthesis is usually most of where that comes from) would be THE SAME for ALL the voices. And WHICH voice's envelopes would control that singular filter anyway???

So your whole "use one filter to save power" suggestion is just way-off. Sorry.

Oh and the filter in the FM7 is a global filter ONLY USED BY THE FEEDBACK CIRCUIT OF THE SINGULAR, SHARED, DELAY LINE... like tone controls for the ENTIRE MIX. It's NOT per voice... but it's also not a typical synth voice filter because, as you point out, it's an additive/fm synth and does it's "filtering" on the head-end. Your original suggestion obviously doesn't apply to the FM7, etc, so why are you even mentioning them?

You list a bunch of additive synths, well OFF COURSE they don't have per voice filters (do they even have filters at all?)... but you're original suggestion seemed to be about subtractive synths that DO. THAT'S what I'm talking about. Samplers, ALWAYS have their filter per-voice. Typically this filter is used to impart dynamics to a static sample (or small set of velocity cross fade samples) so that notes with lower velocity sound duller/not as bright as notes hit with a high velocity. If they didn't do this PER VOICE then ALL the notes would get brighter when you hit one new note. Not good! And EVEN IF YOU COULD set this up... this is NOT how a guitar performs. If I strum a chord, let it sustain, then pick one note again out of that chord... THE REST OF THE NOTES DON'T GET LOUDER/BRIGHTER.

THAT'S what I'm saying. Sorry if I've misinterpreted your original suggestion but it seems to me you're saying synth voices played by guitar might as well share one filter because the voices (strings) share dynamics. Which just IS NOT THE CASE any more than it is for playing from keyboard.

There were about 2 synths in history I know of that worked this way. The PolyMoog (which is arguably an organ with a synth filter tacked on to the end) and the Korg Poly-800 (Which was cheap! And used a system of multiplexing the various voices envelopes to control the singlular shared filter, and this was it's MAJOR WEAKNESS!)

[Sascha Franck]

AdmiralQuality, you surely have more knowledge about synths than me, but it doesn't matter.
I am as well taking your point that most synths have per voice filters as a given.
Yet, it's plain nonsense that a filter affecting *all* voices at once wouldn't make any sense. Ever heard of wahwahs? Of course you have. Isn't that one of *the* most popular effects, especially for guitars (and probably for clavinets as well...)? And a wah is surely not working on a per voice base. A touch wah ain't either. The latter is always taking the overall volume to modulate the cutoff frequency. I'd also gladly post some snipplet of a non-filtered synth running through a global filter, if you want. It won't sound all that unlikely.
I'm not saying that such a setup is sounding *better* than a synth with per voice filtering, but I *am* still saying that, especially for guitar players, my original idea was a reasonable one for quite some sounds.

[AdmiralQuality]

AdmiralQuality, you surely have more knowledge about synths than me, but it doesn't matter.
I am as well taking your point that most synths have per voice filters as a given.
Yet, it's plain nonsense that a filter affecting *all* voices at once wouldn't make any sense. Ever heard of wahwahs? Of course you have. Isn't that one of *the* most popular effects, especially for guitars (and probably for clavinets as well...)? And a wah is surely not working on a per voice base. A touch wah ain't either. The latter is always taking the overall volume to modulate the cutoff frequency. I'd also gladly post some snipplet of a non-filtered synth running through a global filter, if you want. It won't sound all that unlikely.
I'm not saying that such a setup is sounding *better* than a synth with per voice filtering, but I *am* still saying that, especially for guitar players, my original idea was a reasonable one for quite some sounds.

You're qualifying your original statement more and more. Why don't you just admit your suggestions were misguided? I don't see any mention of touch-wah anywhere in your original post! We were, and ARE, discussing playing *synthesizer* here. Not adding overall effects. You seemed to be tossing out (bad, impossible to follow) advice on how to set up synths for MIDI-guitar playback. *I* on the other hand am showing people exactly how to do it, and including examples and sample projects that WORK.

Now if you want to add auto-wah and or envelope following filter that's sensitive to the OVERALL instrument's dynamics, you should of course get SCAMP!

So OBVIOUSLY, I KNOW that one filter can do GREAT effects on an entire instrument... that's not what we're talking about, your suggestion would SCREW UP most of what people are trying to do here (i.e. control discreet synth voices from individual guitar strings). So stop trying to re-write history just because you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong, and please keep your suggestions to whatever topic it is that you DO know something about. Because you're only confusing the issue in this thread, which again is about MIDI-guitar, NOT adding effects to your synth output as some kind of substitute for using filters per synth voice. These are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things, and one is NOT a substitute for the other. Take it from ME, the guy who coded the best envelope following filter on the market!

[Sascha Franck]

You're qualifying your original statement more and more.

Sure.

Why don't you just admit your suggestions were misguided?

Because they weren't.
Maybe my thoughts about filters on a non-per-voice-base were, the rest was all fine.

I don't see any mention of touch-wah anywhere in your original post!

We've been talking about filters. Any wah is a filter.
And any "global" filter might work quite fine in a lot of contexts. Different to what your statements seem to suggest.

We were, and ARE, discussing playing *synthesizer* here. Not adding overall effects.

To me, it doesn't matter whether I'm using an effect which is found onboard or externally. In case the end result is fine (which it certainly can be, using a global filter), it's fine with me as well.

You seemed to be tossing out (bad, impossible to follow) advice on how to set up synths for MIDI-guitar playback.

Sorry, you're an idiot. My advice was just fine. It's working as well. It might not be compliant with your synth expert advice, but nontheless, it's working. It hasn't been impossible to follow either. Actually, the setup is pretty much straight ahead. And, actually #2, it's even quite similar to the setup you mentioned - minus the filter part of it.

*I* on the other hand am showing people exactly how to do it, and including examples and sample projects that WORK.

Where can download your 6-MIDI-channels eXT patch then?

Now if you want to add auto-wah and or envelope following filter that's sensitive to the OVERALL instrument's dynamics, you should of course get SCAMP!

No thanks. I've got enough filters for my needs. And I won't purchase anything from an unfriendliy person like you.

So OBVIOUSLY, I KNOW that one filter can do GREAT effects on an entire instrument... that's not what we're talking about, your suggestion would SCREW UP most of what people are trying to do here (i.e. control discreet synth voices from individual guitar strings). So stop trying to re-write history just because you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong, and please keep your suggestions to whatever topic it is that you DO know something about. Because you're only confusing the issue in this thread, which again is about MIDI-guitar, NOT adding effects to your synth output as some kind of substitute for using filters per synth voice. These are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things, and one is NOT a substitute for the other. Take it from ME, the guy who coded the best envelope following filter on the market!

<insert 4 letter word here> you!

Good luck with your product, asshole.

[Sascha Franck]

Take it from ME, the guy who coded the best envelope following filter on the market!

And btw, this is just the most f**ked up statement I've been reading in a while.
"Take it from ME" - oh yeah, getting some proper lines of code together easily qualifies you as *the* expert. Ok, fine. Go ahead.

[AdmiralQuality]

Sorry, you're an idiot. My advice was just fine. It's working as well. It might not be compliant with your synth expert advice, but nontheless, it's working. It hasn't been impossible to follow either. Actually, the setup is pretty much straight ahead. And, actually #2, it's even quite similar to the setup you mentioned - minus the filter part of it.

...

Good luck with your product, asshole.

Sascha, clearly you're the idiot here. Even worse, you're a stubborn idiot which means you'll never learn. So get used to it!

And the "filter part of it" was EXACTLY WHAT I was pointing out was wrong originally. And it seemed the main point of what you were suggesting. Now why don't you let these nice people get back to discussing controlling SYNTHS with MIDI-guitars (and who wants auto-wah on a synth sound anyway? You have your head full of *guitar* effects, meanwhile we're discussing trying to play flutes and strings and other NON-guitar sounds... that traditionally require SEPARATE filter envelopes, on EACH STRING/VOICE) And stop being a whiner just because your daft suggesion and misguided preconceptions have been repeatedly proven wrong by someone who's clearly qualified enough to know.

I only even mentioned your error because some people here seemed to be thinking you had some kind of valid suggestion with the "turn off your filters and use only one instead to save power" thing. It was just DAFT. As even you pointed out, multiple instances of a synth playing monophonic notes won't use much extra power compared to a single instance playing a polyphonic chord of the same number of notes. So what even was the POINT of your stupid suggestion? Who can't play a 6 note chord on their softsynth? You can't even agree with YOURSELF. All you know is that you're not wrong, you meant a bunch of stuff you didn't state originally, and that anyone who points out your error is an "asshole".

Some people!

[Sascha Franck]

I didn't call you an asshole because of the facts you pointed out (I even admitted that I was wrong most likely), I called you an asshole because of the way you made your statements. And I stick to that.
Apart from that, why don't you just admit yourself that you've been wrong in saying most synths won't even let you turn of their filters, whereas a whole lot of them do?

And why don't you just admit that for whatever typical synth patch played through a MIDI guitar, a global filter could make some sense? I agree that on a string patch it probably won't. Yet, it does make a lot of sense for other patches. On a hairsplitting sidenote, the "flutes" you mentioned usually are monophonic, so why would you need a per voice filter anways? In such cases a global filter would do the job just fine.

But ok, take that from ME, the guy who coded nothing in his life at all. I only happen to be a clueless moron making his life through guitar playing (MIDI guitars included). Should show you how stupid this industry is, employing idiots like me...

[AdmiralQuality]

Ah, you're a professional guitar player. That explains why you don't know much about synthesizers and technology, but think you're godlike and above any scrutiny. And also why your head is stuck thinking of guitar effects instead of synthesizer playing (if you want guitar sounds, you don't NEED a MIDI-guitar now, DO you?) I've been clearly trying to HELP the other guitar players here. And you're the one who got rude first Sascha.

You're just wrong on all counts. Now, some of it is opinion, so fine. But the only thing I was suggesting was wrong, is the thing you NOW admit you were wrong about. Aside from that, I've only been responding to your hypersensitive, insecure, childish overreaction.

And I have nothing more to say about it.

[Sascha Franck]

Ok, fine.
You don't know anything about me, but that's just great as well. Case closed.

[funkadil]

So what things are several mono modes good for besides per string pitch bend. The only thing I can think of is having a different synth patch per sting! that would be wild. Cant you transmit per note data in midi. Like with polyphonic aftertouch, velocity, (other?).

Oh wait. Legato..... nevermind

[AdmiralQuality]

So what things are several mono modes good for besides per string pitch bend. The only thing I can think of is having a different synth patch per sting! that would be wild. Cant you transmit per note data in midi. Like with polyphonic aftertouch, velocity, (other?).

Well, a guitar can play more than one of the same note. A keyboard, and MIDI channel, can't (or at very least, the behavior of multiple-same-notes is undefined on a single MIDI channel).

And yes, pitch bend is per channel. As are all other controllers -- with the exception of polyphonic aftertouch, which is the only other MIDI controller you could use to target individual notes. And even then only if your synth lets you route that to the pitch bend function. (And only if it supports polyphonic aftertouch, it's such a rare feature in keyboards that many synths don't support it either!) Also, most synths, while they often let you re-map controllers, treat pitch bend strictly as pitch bend.

MIDI pitch bend has 2 bytes of data, where all other controllers have only one byte. There's 16,000+ possible amounts of pitch bend, but ALL other "CC" controllers only give you 127. So they don't really have the resolution for accurate bending, especially at wide ranges.

Finally, it can help reduce artifacts from poor tracking... as each string is it's own voice (and as I pointed out way up above somewhere, some MIDI-guitar controllers send MIDI ENV FOLLOW controller messages which you could further use to match your synth's volume to the string volume... this way quietly played missed/bad notes would come out as quiet synth notes.) But even simpler than that, you don't have to worry about a flubbed note on one string stealing a voice from an intentional note on another string. And if poorly tracked due to bad picking, that string can use it's individual pitch bend to recover to the correct note, once the guitar note settles down, WITHOUT having to retrigger a new note on the synth!

So, Mono mode is pretty vital IMHO. Poly mode is a poor way to represent a guitar.

[Sascha Franck]

The only thing I can think of is having a different synth patch per sting! that would be wild.

A rather common thing, really.
For example: Low E and A strings go through some bass patch, tuned an octave lower than the upper strings (which would then trigger another patch, try an organ along with some double bass!). Truly amazing, especially in case you're sort of familiar with those jazzy bassline plus chord things (think about Joe Pass or Tuck Andress).

Btw, talking about such things: Apart from lead stuff, fingerstyle has always been the thing working best for me on MIDI guitars. Using picks often results in unwanted harmonics, scratches and whatever. Fingers however can easily dampen a string if necessary. Plus (especially in case you're not using nails), there seem to be less harmonics and the likes.
Ah, another small tip: when using a pick, try out some of those jazzer's picks (for example: Dunlop Jazz III, those with the sharp tip). They're producing a cleaner tone than most standard picks. Plus, they don't wear off that easily (as in getting scratches, something you sometimes even want for plain guitar sounds).

[kevink]

So what things are several mono modes good for besides per string pitch bend. The only thing I can think of is having a different synth patch per sting! that would be wild.

For example, sometimes I make the guitar into a "brass section" or "string section" by assigning different brass or string instruments to the different strings, more or less according to their natural range. Play a chord and it sounds a heck of a lot more natural than mashing a chord on a "brass" or "strings" patch on a keyboard. One has to be careful constructing melody lines with such a setup, however.