VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?

[Sascha Franck]

Some further points: PB data thinning *is* for example resulting in less slides to be interpreted as some weird PB jumps.
It's also doing quite a great job on *some* plain bends (on some others it however isn't - which is exactly, why it's thinnable).
These are some things almost each and every MIDI guitar player is aware of (or, at least, has noticed occasionally). But it's a thing you'll actually have to *try* out, rather than coming up with wild speculations about PB data thinning to be there to cause less stress on the limited MIDI bus, so you'd either switch it off or on entirely. Sure, having less PB data running through the cable *might* result in less MIDI delay. But it's also a great thing to use to actually clean up your performance. And I happened to actually *experience* the effect, on both very ancient and very up to date equipment.
But hey, you will argue about that again, before even trying to check out a MIDI guitar yourself. So I'll just rest my case.

[AdmiralQuality]

Some further points: PB data thinning *is* for example resulting in less slides to be interpreted as some weird PB jumps.
It's also doing quite a great job on *some* plain bends (on some others it however isn't - which is exactly, why it's thinnable).

As my earlier point noted, if your tracking is inaccurate, then thinning will only lengthen the duration of a badly tracked PB message. Yes, statistically there's some chance you might skip over the bad ones, but there's no guarantee it won't have the opposite effect and make the bad ones last longer. You're trying to fix tracking by throwing away data, but WHY would you assume only the bad data gets thrown away? Error in your logic (for want of a more appropriate term) again.

These are some things almost each and every MIDI guitar player is aware of (or, at least, has noticed occasionally). But it's a thing you'll actually have to *try* out, rather than coming up with wild speculations about PB data thinning to be there to cause less stress on the limited MIDI bus, so you'd either switch it off or on entirely. Sure, having less PB data running through the cable *might* result in less MIDI delay. But it's also a great thing to use to actually clean up your performance. And I happened to actually *experience* the effect, on both very ancient and very up to date equipment.
But hey, you will argue about that again, before even trying to check out a MIDI guitar yourself. So I'll just rest my case.

Sascha, I'm sure YOU have ALL KINDS of problems with your MIDI guitar. When i get one, I probably won't (technology just WORKS for me, sorry... ) And I'd say you have problems exactly because you don't read the manual, assume things that just aren't the case, and have a poor analytical process for troubleshooting. Sure, you might THINK this stuff you're saying is good advice, but it's really old wives tales.

[Sascha Franck]

The asshole is the guy who feels he has to argue with every technical point I explain here.

I haven't done that.
I have commented on *some* facts that you simply haven't gotten right. Data thinning IS there to let you experience a cleaner performance in some cases. This is what I was saying, nothing else.
And regarding your "no data is unwanted" statement, I wouldn't happen to know about a more stupid statement when it comes to MIDI guitars. There's a WORLD of unwanted data. This is EXACTLY why modern controllers (such as the Axxon ones) allow for meticulous adjustment of all sorts of parameters. And it's *especially* PB data that is quite unwanted for a lot of things. Well, not exactly unwanted, but there's simply too much of it in a lot of cases. EVERY MIDI guitarist knows that! Had you ever played an recorded a MIDI guitar, you'd simply *know* about the occasions when, say, an "accidental" harmonic would cause the PB data send to make a sudden jump. By thinning out PB data, those occasional jumps will be ignored as they're happening too quickly.
On the downside, you won't be able to play a mixture of PB and vibratos anymore - at least not with accuracy.
This is *what* happens. And that's the important point for me and my playing.
You however seem to know *how* things happen (read: are realized technically). Yet, that doesn't make you know anything about the *what* part of it. Simply because (as you admitted yourself) have ZILCH experience when it comes to playing MIDI guitars.

Oh, and btw, I more or less happily admitted that I've been wrong on the filter issue and I also admitted that I partially confused general data thinning with PB data thinning. The rest of my statements might not contain technical wisdom such as to be found in yours, oh great master, but they contained something again: *actual* experience. And yes, I experienced what it works like running a global filter behind a bunch of 6 synths when running my MIDI guitar through them. And while this surely isn't suitable for super realistic sampler patches, it still does a fine job on a lot of occasions (even without sounding like a wah, which only served as an example).
I played via such patches. You didn't. Ah well, but of course you still know it better.

[Sascha Franck]

Apart from it being a bit aged, I don't have the slightest problems with my MIDI guitar. The setup is as perfect as it could be with a GK-II and a GI-10. Minus the fact that I hardly ever use it anymore. Which is the reason I partially confused the available paramters (no need to read the manual, btw, this thing is as self-explanatory as it could be).
In addition, I *experienced* the same sort of problems with other setups as well. Again unlike you.

And hey, I'm excited about the MIDI guitar tracks you'll be posting. I'm sure they'll be brilliant, as technology just works for you. When can I expect something?

[AdmiralQuality]

You're assuming the thinning function makes some kind of value judgement as to the quality of the events it's throwing away. It doesn't. It just throws a certain percentage of them away, mindlessly. SURE, that might help *sometimes*. *Randomly* (you yourself said your results were intermittant....

It's also doing quite a great job on *some* plain bends (on some others it however isn't - which is exactly, why it's thinnable).

) So it's not a reasonable solution to your problem. If it was, it would work ALL the time. You have bad tracking, simple as that. Thinning is like saying the noise in my TV picture goes away when I turn it off!

All your other points I've already refuted. You're just displaying your weak thought process for everyone again. I really wish you'd cut it out, just admit when you're wrong (the best you seem to be able to come up with is "even if you are right" ), and give this thread back to the nice people. Yes, we're all interested in your experience and opinion, but I've got to correct you when you're wrong on technical points because you're just spreading old wives tales. That stuff isn't a help to anybody. Try to do like I do and keep your mouth shut until the subject comes to something you KNOW about. (And as far as my lack of MIDI-guitar playing time, please note that the subject you were attempting to contradict me on was the history of DATA THINNING, not necessarily for MIDI-guitar or any other particular application.)

And I play real-guitar through a single (well, actually stereo) filter all the time, what do you think I made SCAMP for?

Please let's just agree to disagree. And please THINK and do some RESEARCH before you attempt to contradict the next factual and or historical information I choose to share here.

Cheers.

[Sascha Franck]

You're an idiot. Play a MIDI guitar and fool with the PB data thinning parameter. Until then, better shut up.
You don't even seem to get it that certain (sometimes even a lot, depending on the style you're playing in) glitches (in both PB and note data) are happening on each and every MIDI guitar, no matter how well it is adjusted, no matter what controller you're using.
This is common knowledge you simply aren't aware of.
And btw, I never said PB data thinning helped "randomly". It helps on certain occasions. Occasions that I am aware of. Something entirely different than "randomly".
And no, you don't keep your mouth shut on subjects you don't know anything about. This very issue is the best example.

And now I'll leave the last word to you. I'm sure it's gonna be great.

[AdmiralQuality]

And hey, I'm excited about the MIDI guitar tracks you'll be posting. I'm sure they'll be brilliant, as technology just works for you. When can I expect something?

What the hell are you talking about now? I don't have $1500 to spend right now. Maybe if I can sell some software over the next year I will. That's why I'm having a contest for OTHERS to send ME their MIDI-guitar test .mid files, so that I can have some test data to make sure that MY new synth product will work well with MIDI-guitar.

All just cuz that's how much I care about YOU MIDI-guitarists!

[AdmiralQuality]

You don't even seem to get it that certain (sometimes even a lot, depending on the style you're playing in) glitches (in both PB and note data) are happening on each and every MIDI guitar, no matter how well it is adjusted, no matter what controller you're using.

YOU seem to think that thinning will magically read your mind and make these glitches go away. In fact, you're just adding tear (aka ripping, zipper noises) to your controller stream (that's already nowhere near as dense as it should be for a musical application.)

Really, you keep making my point for me OVER and OVER.

BTW, why not enter my contest, win it, then I'll have to give you free software! Wouldn't that make you feel better?

[Sascha Franck]

I wanted to leave the last word to you, but well, you will still have it I'm sure, so:
- A halfway decent MIDI guitar setup can be had for around 500 bucks, if you don't need the most sophisticated controller.
- I won't enter your contest. I don't want any of your products, not even for free. I may use sequencers made by arrogant assholes, but regarding other products I prefer to use things from people and companies I like.
- Your synth product page link doesn't even work. The correct link looks like this.
- You will have to try out PB data thinning yourself before I will respond to any of your nonsense statements again - you may have a technical idea of what might be going on, but you completely lack of practical evidence, which in this case is what counts. And it doesn't matter for a second whether I'm able to argue with you on a technical level or not. I play the damn thing and I know about the results.

Bye.

[AdmiralQuality]

When I get my $1000 Godin xtSA, and $300 GI-20 (plus tax on both), then that'll be part of why I won't be experiencing the troubles that those who would spend only $500 are having (and I also don't have $500, I've gone completely broke over the last year working on Poly-Ana.)

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing RIGHT. No wonder you don't like me. And I really gotta laugh at anyone who'd suggest they "like" a company and make purchasing decisions based on anything other than the quality and value of the products. You good pals with the president of Roland?

Wish me luck, and maybe I'll be able to send YOU something, as YOU requested.

Cheers. (What are you drinking over there in Germany at 3:30 in the morning Sascha? Have another Becks and call 'er a night, eh?)

[guitarzan]

Sascha is right when he says:

...certain (sometimes even a lot, depending on the style you're playing in) glitches (in both PB and note data) are happening on each and every MIDI guitar, no matter how well it is adjusted, no matter what controller you're using.

Which is why I say:

Or...f**k all this guitar to MIDI shit altogether and use something that works like FrettedSynth's pitch to "CV" synths for mono lines. They track more expressively than pitch to MIDI ever will.

For polyphony, maybe run a hex pickup into one of those breakout boxes then into a 6 channel audio interface - then run the 6 channnels of audio into something like a multi-mono version pitch to "CV" synth, or 6 FrettedSynths in parallel if the system could handle it.

I really doubt MIDI is even capable of tracking the subtle dynamics and bends that the FrettedSynth pitch to CV type method can and does.

Just trying to think out of the box

MIDI is never going to give gutar players the kind of response they really want. I say it's time to try new approaches to guitar controlled synths.

[AdmiralQuality]

How about analog?

[nikp2000]

_

Such anger in this topic

AQ, I think you mentioned earlier that you weren't an accomplished guitarist, and if this is true you aren't going to have a lot of success with midi guitar no matter which system you choose. Most guitarists are rather sloppy, and indeed sloppiness is part of our techniques. We scrape, pinch and slap our strings which causes all sorts of problems for pitch to midi conversion and generates lots of ccs, which are not really needed in the conversion. This is independant of the abilities of the vsti, which in most cases is expecting a single note on and then other ccs. If my gr20 is throwing the vsti several note ons and a shitload of pitchbend and velocity ccs in the first several milliseconds, how can it not glitch, unless it is specifically designed to look for that sort of data stream and adapt for it (ie filtering low velocity note ons and data thinning ) You really should look through the midi guitar group on yahoo. All these topics are discussed at length. This isn't a lack of understanding on Sascha Frank and my part.
Sascha Frank, you are right on in you comments. Midi guitar takes a lot of system optimizing and tweaking, and even then you need to adapt to playing different patches. A better discussion would be how to optimize our systems and playing techniques to maximize the benefits of using a guitar controller. I truly wish I could make better use of vstis, but they just don't respond as well as the internal sounds (which really are very good and very responsive to guitar techniques) Most guitarists just want to be able to plug in and play and won't screw with the adaptations they need to make to get good results. As such guitar controllers are going to continue to be a niche market and have little development.

And most vstis don't like guitar controller midi streams.

Nick

_

[AdmiralQuality]

Nick, I've been a un-accomplished guitarist for almost 20 years. I'll do alright I think.

To me, guitar is interesting as a controller to do things that I can't already do on keyboards. For example, it's hard for me to relate to examples of playing piano with a guitar. I have a piano action keyboard, that's all I'd ever want to play a piano sound with.

But the different chord voicings (including playing the same note on different strings at the same time) is a big part of what I'm interested in.

Also I WANT all that CC stuff... that's the POINT... to control analog synth parameters. Myself, I wouldn't be much interested in just triggering ordinary samples... and if I get flubbed notes (which will bend into the CORRECT note if you set things up right) then that's just MORE reason for me to want guitar. On keyboard we can typically only bend all the notes together. BO-RING!

I think a lot of the perceived problem is you guys try to play sounds designed for keyboards with your guitars. As I'm TOTALLY not interested in doing that, and am a thoroughly competent sound designer (indeed, SYNTH designer) I'm SURE I can get sounds that will reflect the parts of the guitar performance I'm interested in... mistakes and all!

Finally, as I'm choosing to make products for you folks, it'll help to actually own a MIDI-guitar myself so people like Sascha will have one less thing to make stupid assumptions about.

S'all. Cheers.

EDIT: Why not send me a .mid file of a poorly performed piece and the .mp3 of the original guitar audio (no effects please). Use Mono mode, and don't thin or remove any controllers. I'll betcha I can make a synth setup (even with any other company's products, as the demo I did the other day showed) that reflects the performance well, and is tolerant of, and perhaps even benefits from, the "mistakes". Now, don't intentionally play bad guitar (the mp3 has to sound OK) but don't try EXTRA hard to play MIDI-guitar style... play like you're playing guitar.

Who knows, you might just win my contest too!

[Sascha Franck]

Ok, the next days I'm gonna get my GKII adjusted again (the guitar had to be refretted recently and I didn't bother with adding the damn thing again yet), so you may probably get your MP3 plus MIDI file.
All I can say is that no MIDI guitar on earth will ever properly capture things such as, say, funky strumming. Almost the same goes for any muted stuff. And it's also partially true for some wilder lead stuff.
Normal guitar playing technique simply isn't made to trigger a MIDI converter. It's like playing an entirely new instrument.

And that's exactly why - if I ever use that stuff live again - it's either gonna be through some pitch to CV type setup (using a multi-in soundcard, running each string into a dedicated input) or through some VG-8/88.

Studiowise I will start using things again as drop 2 chords played on 4 adjacent strings translate brilliantly into some horn section stuff (and triads have always been fine for trumpet sections anyways), so that'll save me a lot of time to relearn all those things on a keyboard.