VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?

[AdmiralQuality]

No you're misinterpreting what I just wrote. This system is exactly so the notes can be "incorrect".

True, they have to START on some exact note value, but if a note-on is IMMEDIATELY followed by a pitch bend correction to the accurate (accurate to what the guitar is playing) pitch, you're unlikely to hear even a blip. More likely the blip will follow in a few more ms as the string attack transient settles down and the controller gets a better track of what the pitch is, then corrects that with further pitch bend messages (and stop reading anything into the word "correct", I just mean correct to the tracking of whatever the guitar is playing, not to some "ideal" note value).

[FrettedSynth]

Damn! don't have the time to read the whole thread, wish I did funny sh*t

The plugins: GCBS, StringSculptor, TrippLead and PhasOsc do NOT pass any of the origanal signal through They use crossing zero to detect the pitch of the incoming signal, which is then converted to a SE CV value and fed to an "Oscillator" No origanal signal is passed through the plugins.

Not here to defend anything! was asked if I could post to clear this up? any questions let me know?

Fretted Synth

[AdmiralQuality]

Damn! don't have the time to read the whole thread, wish I did funny sh*t

The plugins: GCBS, StringSculptor, TrippLead and PhasOsc do NOT pass any of the origanal signal through They use crossing zero to detect the pitch of the incoming signal, which is then converted to a SE CV value and fed to an "Oscillator" No origanal signal is passed through the plugins.

Not here to defend anything! was asked if I could post to clear this up? any questions let me know?

Fretted Synth

Why no LFO mod or portamento of tracked CVs then? Why no MIDI out since you're already deriving pitch? Seems a feature lots of people could use?

Why does setting intervals on the oscillators make pitch shifter like artifacts? If it was CV, wouldn't the shifted pitches be as stable as the 0 pitch? Accomplished simply by adding or subtracting a constant from the detected CV?

And yes, after getting things set up right, and on a mono track, I wasn't seeing any further evidence of leakage. So I take that initial claim back.

[FrettedSynth]

Why no LFO mod or portamento of tracked CVs then? Why no MIDI out since you're already deriving pitch? Seems a feature lots of people could use?

Why does setting intervals on the oscillators make pitch shifter like artifacts? If it was CV, wouldn't the shifted pitches be as stable as the 0 pitch? Accomplished simply by adding or subtracting a constant from the detected CV?

And yes, after getting things set up right, and on a mono track, I wasn't seeing any further evidence of leakage. So I take that initial claim back.

Hello AdmiralQuality

Not sure what you mean by the NO LFO mod ? both StringSculptor and Tripp lead provide LFO to the pitch and many other parts of the synth? Never even thought of working out a setup to add portamento but great idea, I will see what I can do?
No MIDI ? because MIDI is the one big thing that has kept me from ever wanting a guitar synth! IMHO MIDI can't track audio in any usefull way? IMHO

For the pitch artifact? That is how I change the pitch! by adding and subtracting from the detected CV, still have much too learn about this whole subject of pitch tracking, but thanks for pointing it out! I hear what you say, just can't make any sence why it happens?

Fretted Synth

[AdmiralQuality]

Hello AdmiralQuality

Not sure what you mean by the NO LFO mod ? both StringSculptor and Tripp lead provide LFO to the pitch and many other parts of the synth? Never even thought of working out a setup to add portamento but great idea, I will see what I can do?
No MIDI ? because MIDI is the one big thing that has kept me from ever wanting a guitar synth! IMHO MIDI can't track audio in any usefull way? IMHO

For the pitch artifact? That is how I change the pitch! by adding and subtracting from the detected CV, still have much too learn about this whole subject of pitch tracking, but thanks for pointing it out! I hear what you say, just can't make any sence why it happens?

Fretted Synth

Hey Fretted.

Let me say first that I don't mean to put down anything you've been doing. I think the stuff is great and has many uses, I was just arguing over the distinction between processors like this, and true synthesizers, and trying to make the point that one isn't a substitute for the other. (A few people here have been saying essentially "why use a guitar synth when you can do this?")

Tripp Lead is the one I tested. I'm looking at it again... and if there's LFO (or any modulation source) for the oscillator pitches, I don't see them... oh wait! Found them! And yes, seems to work as I would expect a "CV" driven system to. (Can you explain to guitarzan that CV is just a fancy term for "number", the same as you get a number from a MIDI note-on pitch? )

And yes... part of why I thought this wasn't truely pitch tracking is that it REALLY sounds to me like you're using a pitch shift algorithm rather than a simple addition or subtraction of the CV to get the interval offsets. The moment I change it from 0 to any other interval, even the sine wave starts to get very noticeable artifacts. If it was just adding a value to the CV, it should sound just as stable as if I had played that same pitch into it at interval 0.



A suggestion... when the amplitude of the input signal falls below your gate trigger threshold, why not keep the oscillators going at the last detected pitch rather than having them shut off? That way you could have true release tails instead of it always cutting off when the input does (or am I missing something again? ) This was another thing that had me thinking it was processing the input, rather than pitch tracking and driving traditional oscillators.

Cheers!

[FrettedSynth]

Hey Fretted.

Let me say first that I don't mean to put down anything you've been doing. I think the stuff is great and has many uses, I was just arguing over the distinction between processors like this, and true synthesizers, and trying to make the point that one isn't a substitute for the other. (A few people here have been saying essentially "why use a guitar synth when you can do this?")

Tripp Lead is the one I tested. I'm looking at it again... and if there's LFO (or any modulation source) for the oscillator pitches, I don't see them... oh wait! Found them! And yes, seems to work as I would expect a "CV" driven system to. (Can you explain to guitarzan that CV is just a fancy term for "number", the same as you get a number from a MIDI note-on pitch? )

And yes... part of why I thought this wasn't truely pitch tracking is that it REALLY sounds to me like you're using a pitch shift algorithm rather than a simple addition or subtraction of the CV to get the interval offsets. The moment I change it from 0 to any other interval, even the sine wave starts to get very noticeable artifacts. If it was just adding a value to the CV, it should sound just as stable as if I had played that same pitch into it at interval 0.



A suggestion... when the amplitude of the input signal falls below your gate trigger threshold, why not keep the oscillators going at the last detected pitch rather than having them shut off?
Cheers!

Hello

Yes CV in any use is just a #\value but the one thing that MIDI does do is! limit the amount of steps in a given range to the hated (by me anyhow) 0-127
Part of what you hear in the pitch could be two things in that synth! 1. Yes SE osc's do alias 2. If the drive is on? it will alias was the first distortion I built a few years back, getting much better at that in the newer stuff.
And yep! I do need to find a way to make the last tracked pitch sustain, thanks for bringing it up! Hope I can work something out "release" would be a very usefull thing.

Fretted Synth

[MaxJoy]

Uh, if you do this give us a knob to turn it off, please ... the cool thing with your approach is that sound control stays completely in my fingers .



AQ is a plain synth guy, therefore he will never understand what's wrong with midi.

[krraqk]

Sorry to not post more frequently, but have other things to do, damn, people live here or what?.

About the frettedsynth thing, although the topic have the words "midi guitar", I think its not offtopic at all. The essence of the discussion I think is also guitar synth, and this is for an specific product for guitarist that makes synth sounds.

But well its not "my" topic Im only the humble starter.

I have said already my opinion about the frettedsynth stuff, obviously its not perfect, best behaviour, best sounds, etc. are wanted and needed, but its a good try and shows a great potential.

I use midi guitar (axon mkII, gr33...) and want to keep at it, its hard to adapt, its not just like play guitar, but the disadvantages are worth the world of sounds that it give access, but I agree to guitarzan about to praise this thing, its a unique approach (afaik), its done for guitar, it deserves attention and consideration.

I want to say thanks to FrettedSynth to go here and explain how their synths work, its a thread for you for sure, have you plans to improve your fretted synths?

[nix808]

[quote="kevink"]??[/quote
Sorry kevink, I was talking about 3 things at once.

I think there is a market for guitar synths, due to the number of guitar players.

FSA synths are quite good, he/she/they have done a great job to provide us with them free. They have had a lot more success with audio triggered oscillators than I have had in SynthMaker. I am curious to know if their techniques could be utilised in SM, as it is the easier program for me.

My (now) GI-20 is tracking well enough for me. No noticeable delay, and no miss-pitching. I hope I haven't spoken too soon, but it's results seem that little bit better than the GR-20, enough to play live. At this stage I would recomend the GI, if you're looking to control midi. The presets in the GR were working fine though.

Cheers, Nix

[AdmiralQuality]

AQ is a plain synth guy, therefore he will never understand what's wrong with midi.

Wait till you try the "plain synth" I'm building.

And again, everyone, with MIDI pitch bend it's 128 * 16384 possible pitches. 2 million. Of course, you need to use Mono mode so each voice can have it's own PB. S'the'point.

And could you guys with tracking and re-triggering problems try turning up the PB range on your Roland controllers, to an octave or even 2 (and set your synths to match of course), then they'll have less reason to re-trigger notes and let PB come to the rescue. Maybe... worth a try. Oh and don't thin the data either... that will just make any glitches last longer. Yes, if you have a glitch in say one out of every 100 PB messages, and you thin the data by... actually I have no idea how much it thins the data... someone send me thinned and unthinned guitar PB .mid please and I'll consider it a valid contest entry ... anyway say it thins it to 25%... then you've reduced the chances of hearing a glitch to that much as well, HOWEVER, if you do get one it'll last 3 times as long. Make sense?

Another thing I was going to suggest about those of you experiencing spikes. Could be a bad cable or connector causing a brief intermittancy, making the tracking hiccup. Clean the contacts with some alcohol maybe? Wiggle the connectors? Get new 13 pin cables? All things to try.

I WILL be joining you MIDI guitarists, as soon as I can afford some good gear to do it right. No way I'm modding my 50th Anniversary Strat with an ugly GK pickup though. Gonna save my pennies and dedicate a Godin to the task. Buy my synth and that'll just help me get there sooner rather than later. And that'll be good for all you MIDI guitarists because then I can build you solutions (some stuff even free, I'm about due to release another free product after Poly's done anyway! )

[guitarzan]

Damn! don't have the time to read the whole thread, wish I did funny sh*t

The plugins: GCBS, StringSculptor, TrippLead and PhasOsc do NOT pass any of the origanal signal through They use crossing zero to detect the pitch of the incoming signal, which is then converted to a SE CV value and fed to an "Oscillator" No origanal signal is passed through the plugins.

Not here to defend anything! was asked if I could post to clear this up? any questions let me know?

Fretted Synth

Thanks for stopping by, FS!!

So they are synths (using tracking/oscillators) and not effects...and use virtual CV instead of MIDI...boy, I wish I could've found some way to express that concept

[AdmiralQuality]

So they are synths (using tracking/oscillators) and not effects...and use virtual CV instead of MIDI...boy, I wish I could've found some way to express that concept

Yep, they just ACT like effects and exhibit clear artifacts of effects that the author can't explain.

I do believe him that they're tracking now. (In fact I did last night after I finally got things isolated to clear out the input noise that was passing through the right channel. It was just the other clues that were REALLY indicating a process was happening, vs. raw synthesis.) But I'd half bet he's using a pitch shifter instead of just adding a value to the CV. His explanations above don't explain the sound I'm hearing. Yes, SE oscs alias bad (is there not a bandlimited osc module available? ), but the sine osc shouldn't much. And it doesn't in the 0 interval... but the moment you change it to +1 or -1 semitones, you'll immediately hear it. That just should NOT happen if the CV was being shifted.

And why the mod to keep the oscillators going after the gate closes would take more than 10 minutes to implement... I have no idea? C'est la SE I guess. It's like, you can make Lego, but to REALLY make Lego you need your own injection molder. (Hint, put a "sample and hold" module after the pitch detector module that is triggered by the gate closing. Should freeze the last pitch and let the oscs continue while the release segment happens.)

But yes guitarzan, you were right. I admit it.

And thanks again for clearing that up Fretted.

[guitarzan]

I don't really even want the sound to keep going after I stop playing, that was one of the things I liked about the FS synths.
I'm outa here...go on now, AQ, about your anally coded boring ass synth and how f**king great you are and how everyone elses stuff sucks, good luck with that approach...

[AdmiralQuality]

I don't really even want the sound to keep going after I stop playing, that was one of the things I liked about the FS synths.
I'm outa here...go on now, AQ, about your anally coded boring ass synth and how f**king great you are and how everyone elses stuff sucks, good luck with that approach...

"At AQ, our synths are anally coded with our patented boring ass technology. We guarantee our synth will bore deeper, and faster, than any SE created synth -- which use far inferior oral technology -- for infinitely more the price!"

I like it, that one's going in the auto-slogan generator pronto.

A job in our marketing department is waiting for you Guitarzan. You can make friends with people for me to get them to buy my software. (Cuz, we only buy software from people we LIKE, right? Ha! You obviously haven't met some of the guys at my local music store. )

[2ndStringer]

And uhm, the GK pickup... time for a little rant. It might be that they changed a bit in the design of the GK 3 (I own a GK 2a) but it still looks pretty bad. Why in the world do you *have* to have the cable coming out at the top (at your low E string that is)? That's where all the forearm and wrist action is taking place. It'd be WAY better if they allowed for the cable to come out of the bottom end as well. If they allowed for such a thing, they could probably also shorten the damn device. I mean, when you try to dampen the bottom strings with your wrist, there's no way you don't touch the sort of sharp-ish end (at least in case you mount it properly, so it's as close as possible to the bridge.
I truly hate those GK pickups - and they also make each and every guitar look bad. I would never put them onto any of my fine instruments (I'm using mine on a fugly looking old Ibanez Sabre, which I never use live).

This is certainly true. The cable should come out the bottom. They are probably trying to keep it away from the volume and tone knobs, but it is in the way. I put my GK-3 on a Fernandes Strat copy, and it works, but it looks like a Borg guitar. Resistance is futile. . .

John