VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?

[FrettedSynth]

Yep, they just ACT like effects and exhibit clear artifacts of effects that the author can't explain.

I do believe him that they're tracking now. (In fact I did last night after I finally got things isolated to clear out the input noise that was passing through the right channel. It was just the other clues that were REALLY indicating a process was happening, vs. raw synthesis.) But I'd half bet he's using a pitch shifter instead of just adding a value to the CV. His explanations above don't explain the sound I'm hearing. Yes, SE oscs alias bad (is there not a bandlimited osc module available? ), but the sine osc shouldn't much. And it doesn't in the 0 interval... but the moment you change it to +1 or -1 semitones, you'll immediately hear it. That just should NOT happen if the CV was being shifted.

And why the mod to keep the oscillators going after the gate closes would take more than 10 minutes to implement... I have no idea? C'est la SE I guess. It's like, you can make Lego, but to REALLY make Lego you need your own injection molder. (Hint, put a "sample and hold" module after the pitch detector module that is triggered by the gate closing. Should freeze the last pitch and let the oscs continue while the release segment happens.)

Funny guy I think you are I had a bit of respect for you until I read this post which compelled me to read some of your earlier posts, Now that respect is all gone.

The crap about typo's on my site Havent touched my site in two years, a nice guy named asseca has hosted and maintained my site for me now I have to yell at asseca (just kiddin asseca thanks for all you do) TBH if I had made the site it would look awful and have many more typo's Also read something about me not knowing the difference between a strat and a tele dude I most likely picked up a strat before you were born? unless you were born before 1970? but to me your words don't sound like it? have no idea where you got that from?

Then the SE debate comes in which I generaly try to stay away from (because I think all you SE haters are boneheads) That is most of what makes me think your just a kid as for your injection mold way of looking at it
There are many with molds just like yours around the world and they share, and I thank them. The only SE thread I joined in was to say to one of you self proclaimed DSP guru's "it can't be healty for sales to talk crap about others creations in a public forum" ???

And I should take the bet about the pitch shifter I would win Just the same way you were wrong about all the other crap you talked in this thread, its not a pitch shifter.

Peace to you
Fretted Synth

Oh BTW I tried the sample and hold you mention! it sucked but I will come up with something? and yes MaxJoy you will be able to disable it by turning the release down all the way.
Can't wait to see\hear your synth AQ, wait till you see\hear the amp I'm working on
And BTW again I guess by your statement "Yep, they just ACT like effects and exhibit clear artifacts of effects" means I have done better at tracking the real signal then any have ever done THANKS

[AdmiralQuality]

The crap about typo's on my site Havent touched my site in two years, a nice guy named asseca has hosted and maintained my site for me now I have to yell at asseca (just kiddin asseca thanks for all you do) TBH if I had made the site it would look awful and have many more typo's Also read something about me not knowing the difference between a strat and a tele dude I most likely picked up a strat before you were born? unless you were born before 1970? but to me your words don't sound like it? have no idea where you got that from?

1968 Bub. And I was taking about this site by the way:
http://www.helpwantedproductions.com/guitsyn.htm
Is that your's too? If so sorry, didn't even know a KVR member made it.

I think maybe you're being a bit too sensitive and attributing every negative thing I've said about anything to yourself. I even said "more power to ya" and "I think it's great" several times (and that WAS directly in regard to your products.)

Then the SE debate comes in which I generaly try to stay away from (because I think all you SE haters are boneheads) That is most of what makes me think your just a kid as for your injection mold way of looking at it

I see it as the other way around actually. It seems to me its a bunch of kids in their parents basements who consistently get mad whenever the shortcomings of their erector set hobbiest constructions are pointed out.

There are many with molds just like yours around the world and they share, and I thank them. The only SE thread I joined in was to say to one of you self proclaimed DSP guru's "it can't be healty for sales to talk crap about others creations in a public forum" ???

The other argument is that you folks making free SE stuff are effectively spamming up the marketplace with confusing stuff that looks like real products, and have unreasonably low or no price at all. There's a popular slur word for working cheaper and shoddier than serious professionals, but I won't use it here yet.

And I should take the bet about the pitch shifter I would win Just the same way you were wrong about all the other crap you talked in this thread, its not a pitch shifter.

Peace to you
Fretted Synth

Oh BTW I tried the sample and hold you mention! it sucked but I will come up with something? and yes MaxJoy you will be able to disable it by turning the release down all the way.
Can't wait to see\hear your synth AQ, wait till you see\hear the amp I'm working on
And BTW again I guess by your statement "Yep, they just ACT like effects and exhibit clear artifacts of effects" means I have done better at tracking the real signal then any have ever done THANKS

Dude, difference is, I'm not potentially costing you SALES. So, maybe you should think about how you act. Look, I get a lot more respect in the DSP board and I forget when I come out here and dare to help some of you snot nosed brats that a lot of you have serious ego issues and react very negatively to anybody speaking with confidence and authority on any subject. But I don't care, don't want anyone who thinks like that as a "friend" anyway. Anyone who's satisfied with your product absolutely will not need any of my products. We just target different niches.

And like you yourself said, you can't explain what's happening in your own products! That's because, you didn't MAKE it. You just assembled it out of someone else's stuff. And now you act like I've insulted your baby. The author os SE is the one who should be proud of his work (I think SE is a great product). Not you.

The S&H method should absolutely work by the way. Why wouldn't it? Well, you can't answer that because you're unable to speak intelligently about any of the behavior of your products. If you could, you could explain (and understand) why setting intervals introduces strong artifacts in the oscillators. So I'm guessing this method didn't work because you implemented it wrong. Trust me, what I described is exactly how you would go about it (assuming the architecture is indeed how you described it.)

Sorry, different world views I guess. Ta.

[Sascha Franck]

AdmiralQuality, you may be absolutely correct on a lot of technical things (you can even make that "100% correct on everything"), but nontheless: You're an asshole. Your social skills are those of, hm, I don't even know any proper english word. Let's just say they're not existing. I've already seen you acting like this in another thread (that I've only been watching), it's really disgusting to see so much knowledge wasted in a mindset like yours.

I'm sure we all could've learned something from your explanations and experience (and yes, that's the truth), but I really can't be bothered to read your selfish, arrogant and insulting posts anymore.
I won't mute you (that function is something for the weak), but I hope I will not have to reply to anything you write in the next good part of my life either.

Watching *you* typing things such as "you should think about how you act" is almost making me vomit.

But in the end, I take it that you like your "style". As a result of that you'll be absolutely immune towards any criticism (something you've already proved when it came to the discussion of your synth's GUI). Ok, why not? You won.

[FrettedSynth]

>"1968 Bub. And I was taking about this site by the way:
http://www.helpwantedproductions.com/guitsyn.htm
Is that your's too? If so sorry, didn't even know a KVR member made it."

Not me! have no idea why you thought is was? and yep still need some time to grow, you will.

>"I see it as the other way around actually. It seems to me its a bunch of kids in their parents basements who consistently get mad whenever the shortcomings of their erector set hobbiest constructions are pointed out."

Parents basement Funny guy, I have two daughters 10 and 12 been married for 19 years and run a business of my own for a living, sh*t I know what its like to work in the real world bonehead...

>"The other argument is that you folks making free SE stuff are effectively spamming up the marketplace with confusing stuff that looks like real products, and have unreasonably low or no price at all. There's a popular slur word for working cheaper and shoddier than serious professionals, but I won't use it here yet."

In some ways its kicking its ass, this is the real world.

>Dude, difference is, I'm not potentially costing you SALES. So, maybe you should think about how you act. Look, I get a lot more respect in the DSP board and I forget when I come out here and dare to help some of you snot nosed brats that a lot of you have serious ego issues and react very negatively to anybody speaking with confidence and authority on any subject. But I don't care, don't want anyone who thinks like that as a "friend" anyway. Anyone who's satisfied with your product absolutely will not need any of my products. We just target different niches.

And like you yourself said, you can't explain what's happening in your own products! That's because, you didn't MAKE it. You just assembled it out of someone else's stuff. And now you act like I've insulted your baby. The author os SE is the one who should be proud of his work (I think SE is a great product). Not you.

The S&H method should absolutely work by the way. Why wouldn't it? Well, you can't answer that because you're unable to speak intelligently about any of the behavior of your products. If you could, you could explain (and understand) why setting intervals introduces strong artifacts in the oscillators. So I'm guessing this method didn't work because you implemented it wrong. Trust me, what I described is exactly how you would go about it (assuming the architecture is indeed how you described it.)

Would'nt want you for a friend either! friends help each other.
And for the explaining whats happening Sh*t dude, I'm already ahead of the rest. For the S%H its what is needed, but surprise, surprise its all in the timing but you already know that? your smart

Bye, bye
Fretted Synth

[AdmiralQuality]

AdmiralQuality, you may be absolutely correct on a lot of technical things (you can even make that "100% correct on everything"), but nontheless: You're an asshole. Your social skills are those of, hm, I don't even know any proper english word. Let's just say they're not existing. I've already seen you acting like this in another thread (that I've only been watching), it's really disgusting to see so much knowledge wasted in a mindset like yours.

I'm sure we all could've learned something from your explanations and experience (and yes, that's the truth), but I really can't be bothered to read your selfish, arrogant and insulting posts anymore.
I won't mute you (that function is something for the weak), but I hope I will not have to reply to anything you write in the next good part of my life either.

Watching *you* typing things such as "you should think about how you act" is almost making me vomit.

But in the end, I take it that you like your "style". As a result of that you'll be absolutely immune towards any criticism (something you've already proved when it came to the discussion of your synth's GUI). Ok, why not? You won.

I get a lot more praise for the GUI than complaints Sascha (you should see all the email!). Again, I've chosen to do something a little different, rather than what everyone else is doing. If you don't like it, that's FINE. TOTALLY FINE.

Anyway, please stop making this thread about ME. I'm here to listen to you MIDI guitarists, and I can't help but try to correct fallacies when I hear them, and learn where you percieve the problems are so I can build tools to HELP you. Read back, you'll see anything I said that's even approaching rude is after someone (like you Sascha) has chosen to argue the same thing with me 3 posts in a row, gets threatening and insulting (I recall you pulled out "idiot" when I wouldn't just submit to your bullying) when I'm doing my best to provide the REASONS why I think the things I state. You tell me "shut up". I tell you "look at page 32 of your manual". And I'M the asshole?

And by the way Sascha, you were the guy agreeing with me on all the stuff I had to say about Fretted's products -- which again, are GREAT for what they are! But I have to disagree with guitarzan and whoever else it was that said that MIDI-guitar is useless and only stuff like FS's products should be used. Indeed, if he IS converting to CV, then there's NO REASON WHATSOEVER that his product couldn't output MIDI to control any other synth. The problem isn't MIDI -- because again MIDI with a rich PB stream might as well BE a "CV". Though I'd certainly agree MIDI is a less than satisfactory solution, it still is usually good enough, if just barely. It takes some thinking about what it's doing to use it best though, and that's all I've been trying to share with you here.

[AdmiralQuality]

>"1968 Bub. And I was taking about this site by the way:
http://www.helpwantedproductions.com/guitsyn.htm
Is that your's too? If so sorry, didn't even know a KVR member made it."

Not me! have no idea why you thought is was? and yep still need some time to grow, you will.

Fretted, read what I wrote again. YOU accused ME of saying YOU had typos on YOUR site and that YOU don't know the difference between a Strat and a Tele. I DID say that, but I said it about http://www.helpwantedproductions.com/guitsyn.htm ... NOT ABOUT YOUR SITE (which is quite nice... prettier than mine!) Again, you're being so hypersensitive that you're choosing to take everything I say about ANYTHING personally. You must be REALLY insecure. I'm sorry.

Parents basement Funny guy, I have two daughters 10 and 12 been married for 19 years and run a business of my own for a living, sh*t I know what its like to work in the real world bonehead...

Yes I gathered you were older than me Fretted by the first time you played a Strat comment. Yay?

Would'nt want you for a friend either! friends help each other.
And for the explaining whats happening Sh*t dude, I'm already ahead of the rest. For the S%H its what is needed, but surprise, surprise its all in the timing but you already know that? your smart

I thought about timing issues, but as long as the gate isn't set below the level that you can effectively detect pitch at, then it should be fine. Unless of course the gate shuts off the pitch to CV conversion. But why would it? (Who knows??? )

Bye, bye
Fretted Synth

Lighten up dude. Ciao.

[Sascha Franck]

For the last freaking time, AQ: It's NOT about agreeing or disagreeing, it's not about facts either, and it certainly isn't about whether your synth's GUI is nice or not or whether FrettedSynths are kickass or shit and the technical reasons behind whatever - no, it's about the WAY you put your words! And the way YOU put your words is that of an ignorant, arrogant asshole! And you're proving this with each and every post you make.
I don't have a problem with technical arguments, but I DO have a problem with almost anybody being treated as a brainless idiot by you - and even IF we were brainless idiots, why would you even communicate with us?
Haven't you gotten enough milk from your moms tits so you have to compensate for whatever complexes by making yourself look like Mr. Superiority himself? I don't even want to know.
All I know is that this isn't the way I usually communicate. And I don't want this to become my way to communicate either.
And that's why I won't say anything regarding the matter anymore.

[AdmiralQuality]

Again, and YOU think I'M the rude one?

[guitarzan]

...a lot of you have serious ego issues and react very negatively to anybody speaking with confidence and authority on any subject

Yeah, WE have ego issues I actually got a good kick out of you "speaking with confidence and authority" about the FS synths - totally 100% wrong, on every issue, for what, 10 pages

By the way, I'm 44 and I've been playing guitar for 32 years - I never said MIDI guitar was useless, just that you can't play them like a real guitar, where you really could jam the old Roland pitch to CV units, and Fretted Synth's pitch to virtual CV synths are the next best thing (find a way to make them poly and they'd be the best guitar synth ever!). I was trying to let you in on somthing new going on (SE or not, FrettedSynth is the one who came up with this new tracking scheme), but I guess you're way too knowledgeable to bother learning anything new.

[FrettedSynth]

Damn! sorry to cause such a fuss here all.

@Sascha Franck - Thanks for the words, I was thinking I was wrong in the way this guy came off? might be? I don't know?
Anyhow! working on a new amp-sim if you would like to help test? Please let me know?

Fretted Synth

[FrettedSynth]

@AdmiralQuality - Oh yeh! if I had no idea what was happining in my projects, I never would have been able to make them in the first place, Right?

See you bub!
Fretted Synth

[MaxJoy]

@AQ: The world is waiting for your supa-dupa new midi-based solution! We're tired of your lenghty mails and the $$ in your eyes, please show us the next BIG thing ...

[AdmiralQuality]

...a lot of you have serious ego issues and react very negatively to anybody speaking with confidence and authority on any subject

Yeah, WE have ego issues I actually got a good kick out of you "speaking with confidence and authority" about the FS synths - totally 100% wrong, on every issue, for what, 10 pages

By the way, I'm 44 and I've been playing guitar for 32 years - I never said MIDI guitar was useless, just that can't play them like a real guitar, where you really could jam the old Roland pitch to CV units, and Fretted Synth's pitch to virtual CV synths are the next best thing (find a way to make them poly and they'd be the best guitar synth ever!). I was trying to let you in on somthing new going on (SE or not, FrettedSynth is the one who came up with this new tracking scheme), but I guess you're way too knowledgeable to bother learning anything new.

"New tracking scheme"???

They use crossing zero to detect the pitch of the incoming signal, which is then converted to a SE CV value and fed to an "Oscillator" No origanal signal is passed through the plugins.

Timing the zero crossings is not a "new tracking system". It's the "naive method" in fact (not to put it down. that's just what us programmers call going about something in the most obvious, simple, way. Which AGAIN is not always a bad thing.) But the problem with simple zero crossing timing (and the reason he asks you to play on the neck pickup) is that too strong harmonics above the fundamental (too bright a tone) can cause you to have more than one zero crossing per fundamental period. Sorry Guitarzan, but FS just isn't the innovator you seem to think. Again, he can't even explain why certain things are happening (And why would he be expected to? He didn't write the SE modules he assembled) and he's having trouble making a small change that should be simple (i.e. adding a release segment... a feature that seems it was intended to be there anyway, but was put aside and ignored because he was having trouble making it work. Unless those release sliders do something I haven't noticed yet? And if so, sorry!!!! Again, you get what you pay for so of COURSE FS's products provide you with INFINITE value! It's a divide by zero thing.)

Hey, since you all like this stuff so much, I guess I'll add naive pitch tracking to the effect version of Poly-Ana. Then I WILL be in direct competition with FS. Oh goodie! (There was also a suggestion, I forget who said it maybe it was even you Guitarzan, of hard syncing an oscillator to an external input and that's a GREAT idea too! *steals*)

As far as "find a way to make them poly" that's already been explained here. Get a breakout box for your 13 pin. Run it into 6 inputs on your DAW, and run 6 instances of your favorite FS product, one on each input's track. Done. Ah yes Guitarzan, even you pointed that out. So why do you keep asking for a way to make it poly? If you knew much about DSP, you'd know that pulling individual notes out of a chord is an as yet unattainable holy-grail. I believe there's a substantial prize from M.I.T. still standing for the first person who can write a program that can accurately transcribe a piano performance. It's a HARD problem. Credit to our ears and brains for their incredible processing ability!

As far as "totally 100% wrong" goes... all I did was make observations, carefully, and comment on what I was seeing. I repeated said I could't be 100% sure it was happening the way I suspected, and suggested more than once that we invite FS in here to just tell us. Again, even FS himself can't explain the indicators I was seeing (and that he sees himself) that really suggest this is using effect like processes vs raw-synthesis (the pitch shifting artifact being one, and the inability to release after the input is quiet being the other.) So I think it's certainly understandable. And at LEAST I explain what I'm thinking, and my process, clearly and openly.

Anyway, just a guess after 5 minutes of playing with it, but... maybe we can get the FrettedSynth author in here to tell us how it works?

Still, its hard to complain about something that's free. So more power to em! And sorry for putting it down. Like I said, there's a use for EVERYTHING. I just tend to be REALLY FUSSY when it comes to sound, so don't take the fact that I'm not impressed too badly. I'm RARELY impressed.

That was my FIRST comment on FS!!!

They don't have oscillators per se (or if they do, they're not behaving like oscillators).

Again, I'm here qualifying my assumption because I KNOW I can't prove it.

But I may be wrong. I did say it was just a guess after a short test. Anybody know the author so we can find out for sure?

... and again.

And yes, lets wait to hear what FS has to say on the subject.

(Incedentally, the gain/clip/waveshape method I suggested, would work just as well.)

Back to your comments Guitarzan... as far as "I never said MIDI guitar was useless, just that can't play them like a real guitar"...

Or...f**k all this guitar to MIDI shit altogether and use something that works like FrettedSynth's pitch to "CV" synths for mono lines. They track more expressively than pitch to MIDI ever will.

It was ONLY in response to statements like that that I even looked at and commented on FS's products anyway! Again, I'm trying to HELP here, not throw out the baby with the bathwater just because there's some tricky stuff to setting up a MIDI-guitar and controller and use instead some freeware SE created "product". For SOME of us... and sure, not you, but for SOME of us... the sound of your favorite brand of "guitar synths" is ATROCIOUS. And we'd like to be able to play ANY synth of OUR CHOICE from a guitar. (But all FS has to do is add a MIDI out of his CV with PB stream for fine tune correction and appropriate controller streams for his env follower signal, and you could!)

Again, maybe I'll tackle this one myself someday, as so many of you seem to like it. You're welcome.

[guitarzan]

I didn't say MIDI guitar was useless, what I said is MIDI guitar sucks. It does, I know that, almost everyone who has ever used it has been telling you that MIDI guitar sucks. It still gets used, I use it, but the tracking stinks. Only you, who has never palyed MIDI guitar, seems to know better.

[AdmiralQuality]

I didn't say MIDI guitar was useless, what I said is MIDI guitar sucks. It does, I know that, almost everyone who has ever used it has been telling you that MIDI guitar sucks. It still gets used, I use it, but the tracking stinks. Only you, who has never palyed MIDI guitar, seems to know better.

And I say you don't have the patience, knowledge (though at this point you should) or interest to MAKE it work right.

What kind of controller do you use again Gz? Will you do a test setting things up like I suggest and not intentionally screw it up just to try to make me look bad? If so, I'd like to try to help.

Anyway, short version: Use mono mode. Use 1 or preferably 2 octave pitch bend range. Do not use thinning. Make sure your guitar is well set up, new strings, good intonation, etc. Can you PLEASE just try that?

I've played f**king MIDI-guitars before. They were a blast. I just haven't LATELY, or for any length of time, and I haven't played any that were set up by ME. (Again, technology just works for me. Probably cuz it knows what I'll do to it if it doesn't )

Oh and if there's a distinction between "useless" and "sucks", I don't see it. I was just trying to paraphase you without having to quote the harsh language. If anything, that's all the MORE reason to want to refute your statement.

Cheers.