To Jo: Simplifying event/audio workflow within mixer strips

[Drenholm]

Jo,

This is just an idea (or curiousity) of mine, brought on for the most part by the current system for implementing MIDI plugins. Please take it only as this - an idea, which may be completely wrong, from someone who knows nothing about programming or audio workflow! However, if you could elaborate upon my ideas as best you can, I would greatly appreciate it.

Would there be a way to simplify mixer strips so that all plugins are placed within them? Thus, we would have (each category aside from the strip output is optional):

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MIDI plugins > VSTi > audio plugins > output

VSTi settings could be accessed through the usual button; the current - and in my opinion rather complex - way of directing event/audio flow could be simplified to little more order of the plugins within the strip.

This seems to be logical to me, but my sense of logic should rarely be trusted. I hope you can understand what I mean. If there would be any problems or limitations inherent in this approach, or you have any other insights, please offer them. Thank you!

[pljones]

So how could I then use a MIDI FX plugin to process MIDI produced by a VSTi or VST effect plugin? And how would I route MIDI FX output directly to the VST effect I wanted it to control?

Oh... Or that would mean I'd have to have the VSTi plugin in the rack along with the MIDI FX and VST effects so that the plugins could be put in any order.

But really you want to keep audio and MIDI streams separate. MIDI data isn't just about triggering VSTis - it's also about modulators and controls and automation and so on. I want to be able to route a Sequence part to a VST effect to control, say, reverb depth. If that reverb plugin is on a Send mixer bus, there isn't a single VSTi involved - in fact, maybe all my audio sources are WAV files...

[Drenholm]

Could you not then route it as follows?

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SEQUENCE > VST audio effect > SEND OUTPUT

As I said, I may well be wrong; I'd just like to hear Jo's opinion on the possibility of such a setup or reasons why it cannot be implemented. Perhaps the solution is to create separate strips for MIDI processing, as was suggested before. Anyway, I hope my ideas have some weight.

Jo, I await your reply!

[pljones]

I can't see how you could do this with a single rack:

[DaveL60]

Interesting. I'm new enough at this game to not know of any "Audio VST Effect with MIDI Out" -- care to identify an example or two? But I'd have to agree that the stuff on the right looks like it would have to be a second mixer strip. I gess the "Audio VST Effect" taking two inputs would be something like a compressor with a side-chain input, or a vocoder, or the like?

Meanwhile, your use of the term "rack" to describe this reminds that within Trackion that could be a single rack, since routing with a rack there is pretty free form.

DaveL

[pljones]

Yep, "rack" was a typo/thinko - I meant the mixer channels LUNA currently has.

My point is that MIDI FX plugins do not have a fixed position before VSTi plugins. The source of the MIDI data could be from a MIDI sequence rather than an audio to MIDI plugin. Or from live MIDI input. It can be used as a control source for anything in the audio (or, indeed, MIDI) effects chain - or, as shown, to trigger a VSTi.

[Drenholm]

The source of the MIDI data could be from a MIDI sequence rather than an audio to MIDI plugin. Or from live MIDI input.

I don't see how these wouldn't be covered by

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Sequence > MIDI processor > VSTi > audio plugin > output

or

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Live MIDI > MIDI processor > etc.

Like DaveL60, I am too much of a novice to have encountered any "Audio VST Effect with MIDI Out". Perhaps my proposed method would only work for simple purposes such as my own.

Still, I find the current way a bit cumbersome and wonder if it is the most streamlined approach:

• Place MIDI processor in strip A
  Make processor player for desired sequence
  Create new synth
  Connect MIDI processor's event output to synth
  Connect synth outputs to strip B
  etc.

Any other information or explanation would be appreciated.

Next time, I'll just buy a shovel.

[muzycian]

Interesting topic. Will do some thinking on this...

[pljones]

Oh yes. A VST effect with Audio in and MIDI out:
http://www.koen.smartelectronix.com/KTDrumTrigger/
It emits MIDI notes directly, so I could route it to the VST Instrument in my diagram above without the MIDI effect. But I might want to perform some kind of MIDI FX work first. Or I might actually want to turn the notes into CCs to automate the second Audio VST effect shown. Can't do either unless the routing is "complex".

[muzycian]

Yo, what about this brainstorm:

-> The current mixer strips are recalled "Targets"
-> The current "Players" are replaced by the above mentioned "Targets"
-> So the events of a Sequence Part are sent to a "Target"
-> A Target looks alike a current mixer strip, but it can also accept midi
and you can plug in a synth, midi effect, ... i.e. any type of plug
-> Audio and Events (aka MIDI) are processed top-down in the Target Strip/Rack
-> You can send audio to another target by plugging in a "Send Audio To..."
-> You can send MIDI to another target by plugging in a "Send Events To..."
-> You could still simulate a current mixer strip by just plugging in audio effects in a Target strip / rack

So this new system could combine a lot of things in a more easy way

Now i still need to think this over a couple of times, but what do you think of this?

[DaveL60]

So, if you have a VST / VSTi that outputs both audio and MIDI, do both audio and events just flows "down the strip" until they hit either a compatible input or a "Send [x] to ..."?

It all sounds reasonable to me, but I tend to be simple-minded about this stuff, so someone will undoubtly come up with a wrinkle that isn't handled well.

DaveL

[muzycian]

So, if you have a VST / VSTi that outputs both audio and MIDI, do both audio and events just flows "down the strip" until they hit either a compatible input or a "Send [x] to ..."?

Yes, indeed.

[Drenholm]

Jo, that sounds very good. Thank you for your time.

I hope that this new idea is useful to you and wish you luck for if you decide to implement it. I also hope that it isn't too violently opposed by any other members!

[pljones]

Mmm, and can the "send" plugins be somewhat intelligent (maybe not day one)..? So the MIDI sends could pick and choose which messages to send? That would be incredibly flexible (e.g. sending all Ch 10 messages one way, with the rest passing through). I'd only expect each MIDI send to have one target - chaining and filtering could achieve the rest. For an audio send, there could be "passthru level" and "send level" controls, I suppose.



This sounds pretty much spot on.

(Now I just need the UI under MIDI/automation control )

[muzycian]

Mmm, and can the "send" plugins be somewhat intelligent (maybe not day one)..? So the MIDI sends could pick and choose which messages to send? That would be incredibly flexible (e.g. sending all Ch 10 messages one way, with the rest passing through).

That could also be achieved by a "general" send, and then plug in a MIDI filter plug in the destination Target

(oh yes, i would love to have integrated plugs, both audio as midi. but that needs some more time i think)

I'd only expect each MIDI send to have one target - chaining and filtering could achieve the rest. For an audio send, there could be "passthru level" and "send level" controls, I suppose.

There is only a send level. Pass thru level could be achieved by plugging in a Volume fader next to the send.

Anyway, it's indeed possible to do almost everything with this, even in a version 1.0 state, maybe by means of some extra plugs.

And i'll keep in mind for a version 2 or so to offer more control on the sends

This sounds pretty much spot on.

Yeah, me like the idea too, still breeding on it some more though...

(Now I just need the UI under MIDI/automation control )

Can you elaborate on this, not sure what you mean, sorry.