I'm trying to set up a PWM patch and having a bit of trouble.
http://www.zirconstudios.com/PWMtest.fxp
Note how the LFO seems to be moving the sound from one extreme to the other with very little time in between. I want as smooth of an LFO as possible with seamless transitioning between the pulse widths. They should be morphed through constantly, not like a square wave as it is now!
Can anyone help?
Screwy PWM behavior?
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- KVRAF
- 4707 posts since 16 Mar, 2004 from Columbia, MD
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- u-he
- 30213 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Will look into it! - Smooth PWM is possible, for sure!
Urs
P.S.: This is for Zebra? Or is it for Filterscape?
UrsP.S.: This is for Zebra? Or is it for Filterscape?
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 19 Sep, 2006
I just just checked your preset in Zebra2 (it's written in the fxp ).
And a possibility would be to preselect the middle waveform of the 1.osc because LFO goes from negativ values to positiv ones. So if you select the left waveform and the LFO goes into the negativ values the waveform will remain the same.
And then you could still play with the resolution knob to get closer to the desired effect.
).And a possibility would be to preselect the middle waveform of the 1.osc because LFO goes from negativ values to positiv ones. So if you select the left waveform and the LFO goes into the negativ values the waveform will remain the same.
And then you could still play with the resolution knob to get closer to the desired effect.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4707 posts since 16 Mar, 2004 from Columbia, MD
Urs; Zebra 2.
FragileX; So in other words, set the Wave knob to 12:00 and leave everything else the same? I tried that, but it didn't sound any smoother... I just want a clean sweep back and forth between one extreme of the pulse width to the other, at a constant rate of change.
FragileX; So in other words, set the Wave knob to 12:00 and leave everything else the same? I tried that, but it didn't sound any smoother... I just want a clean sweep back and forth between one extreme of the pulse width to the other, at a constant rate of change.
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- KVRist
- 199 posts since 19 Sep, 2006
Try this settings :
OSC1: Wave 8.5
Lfo2Mod 7.2
LFO2: Amp 94.50
Rate 24
With host tempo 120. Here the modulation is quite smooth but i'm sure this can be optimized further.
OSC1: Wave 8.5
Lfo2Mod 7.2
LFO2: Amp 94.50
Rate 24
With host tempo 120. Here the modulation is quite smooth but i'm sure this can be optimized further.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4707 posts since 16 Mar, 2004 from Columbia, MD
That does work better, I'll try tweaking that. Thanks.
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- u-he
- 30213 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Yo, PWM normally works from the "phase" tab of the oscillators and then it's not related to the waveform parameter. Using a sawtooth (the default waveform) with "inv" turned to "on" makes a square wave, while the phase parameter (plus its modulation) controls the pulse width.
Check out this preset:
Keyboards/UH Classic Zebra Pulse
Will elaborate more tomorrow, I gotta get some sleep before that.
Cheers,
Urs
Check out this preset:
Keyboards/UH Classic Zebra Pulse
Will elaborate more tomorrow, I gotta get some sleep before that.
Cheers,
Urs-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4707 posts since 16 Mar, 2004 from Columbia, MD
Still doesn't sound right... do you have Pro 53? I'm just trying to properly replicate a patch from that soundbank. Really, I STRONGLY encourage a better implementation of PWM for a future release. It should not take this much effort to create a simple preset using it!
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- u-he
- 30213 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Can you send me an mp3 of the Pro 53 sound?zircon wrote:Still doesn't sound right... do you have Pro 53? I'm just trying to properly replicate a patch from that soundbank. Really, I STRONGLY encourage a better implementation of PWM for a future release. It should not take this much effort to create a simple preset using it!
Actually, clicking the PWM button in the Phase tab and modulating Phase for PWM doesn't sound too hard to me... I'll keep it in mind though and hope to be able to do something about it.
Cheers,
Urs-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4707 posts since 16 Mar, 2004 from Columbia, MD
Sure.
http://www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad1.mp3 <- unedited patch
http://www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad2.mp3 <- delay off (can't get the z2 delay to sound like this either)
http://www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad3.mp3 <- osc 2 off (so just a single oscillator now)
The base preset itself is as follows. Two pulse oscs, slightly detuned. A slight amount of further voice detuning from Pro-53 itself (the "analog" knob). A highpass filter with no reso and no envelope. A triangle LFO modulating the PW of osc 1. The amp env is a generic "pad" kind of setting - extended attack + release.
Also I don't see a PWM button - I assume you mean the "Inv" button which you had described earlier as turning the saw into a pulse, but this method is not producing good results. It is also difficult to tweak LFO depth when you have an LFO depth AND an LFO amplitude control, and if I'm not mistaken the "rate" knob is not measured in hz either...
http://www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad1.mp3 <- unedited patch
http://www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad2.mp3 <- delay off (can't get the z2 delay to sound like this either)
http://www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad3.mp3 <- osc 2 off (so just a single oscillator now)
The base preset itself is as follows. Two pulse oscs, slightly detuned. A slight amount of further voice detuning from Pro-53 itself (the "analog" knob). A highpass filter with no reso and no envelope. A triangle LFO modulating the PW of osc 1. The amp env is a generic "pad" kind of setting - extended attack + release.
Also I don't see a PWM button - I assume you mean the "Inv" button which you had described earlier as turning the saw into a pulse, but this method is not producing good results. It is also difficult to tweak LFO depth when you have an LFO depth AND an LFO amplitude control, and if I'm not mistaken the "rate" knob is not measured in hz either...
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- u-he
- 30213 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Hmmm. The version with just one oscillator sounds right, but the ones with two oscs sounds much like no pwm and just vibrato.
Anyhow, what about this:
http://www.u-he.com/UH_Simple_PWM.h2p (right-click & save)
Urs
Anyhow, what about this:
http://www.u-he.com/UH_Simple_PWM.h2p (right-click & save)
Urs-
- u-he
- 30213 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Yes, that one.zircon wrote:I assume you mean the "Inv" button which you had described earlier as turning the saw into a pulse, but this method is not producing good results
It's the common way to produce PWM, probably used on 99.9% of all digital synthesizers.
The analogue way (a sawtooth + dc-offset sent into a rectifier) produces a dc offset and thus must be high-pass filtered, and the extreme settings for pulse width have less power. That's why I think that the digital implementation is superior, as it avoids volume drops.
The implementation in Zebra is vibrato-less btw, as the phase shift is symmetric and not just on one of the two sawtooths... a little detail that many synth developers forget. If vibrato is desired, you can just add that to your liking.
Oh... to match the Pro 53, the Width parameter on the osc pane must be set to zero, to make the oscillators monophonic.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4707 posts since 16 Mar, 2004 from Columbia, MD
Wait, so you mean that when I select a pulse osc in most digital synths, it's just a saw osc with a DC offset? And when I'm applying modulation to the pulse width control, it's just changing something with the saw osc..? That doesn't seem right!
At any rate, the patch you provided is a better approximation, but there's still something just *wrong* with the OSC timbre. Plus, there's no vibrato in the Pro-53 patch (I'm positive). Compare a single Z2 osc (no effects, no PWM) with a single Pro-53 osc.
http://www.zirconstudios.com/comparison.mp3
The Pro-53 sounds brighter and, for lack of a better word, sounds more 'square'-ish. There's even a slight unstable quality to it. The Z2 osc sounds more thin, and dull in comparison. Now with PWM enabled on the single oscs...
http://www.zirconstudios.com/comparison2.mp3
Again, there seems to be a little bit of dullness to the Z2 osc. Also, the Pro-53 osc seems to be going up and down through a PW value whereas the Z2 seems to only be going up and back to the default point. I'm not sure how to explain it. Do you hear what I mean?
This minor distinction may seem silly to you but I feel strongly about it. That Pro-53 patch is one of my all time favorites and has been all over the place in my songs... it's VERY useful. A synth as powerful as Z2 should be able to easily replicate the sound from a dinosaur like Pro-53.
At any rate, the patch you provided is a better approximation, but there's still something just *wrong* with the OSC timbre. Plus, there's no vibrato in the Pro-53 patch (I'm positive). Compare a single Z2 osc (no effects, no PWM) with a single Pro-53 osc.
http://www.zirconstudios.com/comparison.mp3
The Pro-53 sounds brighter and, for lack of a better word, sounds more 'square'-ish. There's even a slight unstable quality to it. The Z2 osc sounds more thin, and dull in comparison. Now with PWM enabled on the single oscs...
http://www.zirconstudios.com/comparison2.mp3
Again, there seems to be a little bit of dullness to the Z2 osc. Also, the Pro-53 osc seems to be going up and down through a PW value whereas the Z2 seems to only be going up and back to the default point. I'm not sure how to explain it. Do you hear what I mean?
This minor distinction may seem silly to you but I feel strongly about it. That Pro-53 patch is one of my all time favorites and has been all over the place in my songs... it's VERY useful. A synth as powerful as Z2 should be able to easily replicate the sound from a dinosaur like Pro-53.
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- u-he
- 30213 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
PWM is done in most digital synths by adding an inverted sawtooth to a positive sawtooth. The phase shift between the two determins the pulse width. The dc offset is used in analogue synths (along with a recitfier).
If only the inverted sawtooth is shifted, modulating the pulse width introduces vibrato (as shifting the phase is basically vibrato). In Zebra2, both sawtooths are equally shifted in opposite direction, thus "cancelling out" the vibrato. - In the Pro52 patch I can clearly hear vibrato due to asymmetric shift of the pulse width.
The "dullness" is probably due to differing modulation speeds. Try adjusting the LFO Rate... it might need a little speed up...
The "unstable quality" is probably just aliasing, but don't quote me on that.
The "more squarish" sound in the Pro53 is a bug IMHO, my good old Prophet One (back in the days...) sounded more like Zebra than like that. You can recreate that in Zebra by applying the "Odd for Even" oscillator effect, slightly turned up (10%?).
Later,
Urs
If only the inverted sawtooth is shifted, modulating the pulse width introduces vibrato (as shifting the phase is basically vibrato). In Zebra2, both sawtooths are equally shifted in opposite direction, thus "cancelling out" the vibrato. - In the Pro52 patch I can clearly hear vibrato due to asymmetric shift of the pulse width.
The "dullness" is probably due to differing modulation speeds. Try adjusting the LFO Rate... it might need a little speed up...
The "unstable quality" is probably just aliasing, but don't quote me on that.
The "more squarish" sound in the Pro53 is a bug IMHO, my good old Prophet One (back in the days...) sounded more like Zebra than like that. You can recreate that in Zebra by applying the "Odd for Even" oscillator effect, slightly turned up (10%?).
Later,
Urs-
- KVRist
- 87 posts since 26 Jul, 2004
Hi!zircon wrote:Wait, so you mean that when I select a pulse osc in most digital synths, it's just a saw osc with a DC offset? And when I'm applying modulation to the pulse width control, it's just changing something with the saw osc..? That doesn't seem right!
At any rate, the patch you provided is a better approximation, but there's still something just *wrong* with the OSC timbre. Plus, there's no vibrato in the Pro-53 patch (I'm positive). Compare a single Z2 osc (no effects, no PWM) with a single Pro-53 osc.
http://www.zirconstudios.com/comparison.mp3
The Pro-53 sounds brighter and, for lack of a better word, sounds more 'square'-ish. There's even a slight unstable quality to it. The Z2 osc sounds more thin, and dull in comparison. Now with PWM enabled on the single oscs...
http://www.zirconstudios.com/comparison2.mp3
Again, there seems to be a little bit of dullness to the Z2 osc. Also, the Pro-53 osc seems to be going up and down through a PW value whereas the Z2 seems to only be going up and back to the default point. I'm not sure how to explain it. Do you hear what I mean?
This minor distinction may seem silly to you but I feel strongly about it. That Pro-53 patch is one of my all time favorites and has been all over the place in my songs... it's VERY useful. A synth as powerful as Z2 should be able to easily replicate the sound from a dinosaur like Pro-53.
In the second example, i like the sound of the first synth better. Which one is that?