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Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:18 pm

james0tucson wrote:Sooner or later Gol will get his hands on a Macbook Pro, realize it's a good platform (fun to develop for; and I'm speaking as a MacOSX developer), and you might witness the abandonment of the Windows version.

Yeah, I'm sure he'll port hundreds of thousands of lines of code to a different language just for shits and giggles.

Seriously, though, before gol was a music developer he was a game developer. No one who has even the slightest interest in computer gaming bothers to look at a Macintosh. It may very well be deeply-ingrained contempt

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:23 pm

machinesworking wrote:OK so as a mac user why would I buy any of your "mac" compatible software?

WHAT Mac-compatible software?

DavenH · Post by **DavenH** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:29 pm

There's an OSX version of Toxic III, but Maxx is programming that not Gol.

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:30 pm

tony tony chopper wrote:It's a technical restriction, as we've always said - no Delphi for Mac OS, so..

But even if I had the choice, I still wouldn't consider it. I've only heard crap about Mac programming, Apple apparently having no consideration for programmers or backwards compatibility. Basically totally the opposite of Microsoft.

With all due respect, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Right, there's no Delphi. I do MacOSX development in Objective-C and Cocoa. While I am not a Mac fanatic by any means, I do find the platform a joy to target for. I can design in GNUStep, and use a linux box to code, and have stuff work on Mac with a minimum of effort. My projects are strictly games, and I have not delved into audio software, but I don't think the situation is so bad that you should, speaking as one professional developer to another, come out publicly and claim either that you do not have the choice, or that you would not consider it.

I understand where you are coming from, but I also know that you may find the platform to be much more accommodating to a developer than you have been led to believe. You might also find certain technical merits of the platform to be worthy of investigation.

Please, I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world or that Apple will take over Windows' market share.

I'm just saying that remarks like "even if I had the choice, I still wouldn't consider it", don't really sound like a professional developer or project manager speaking, and that "I've only heard crap about Mac programming" is a little personally insulting because you HAVE heard otherwise FROM ME.

As for "Apple apparently having no consideration for programmers or backwards compatibility", I don't even know where you get this idea. They make XCode, one of the better IDE's out there, available. The made Interface Builder to be backwards compatible with all previous Apple design guidelines. They adopted GCC. They have the Darwin and Cocoa API's as open as they possibly could be. I don't see any area where Apple could do more to embrace programmers or to enable backwards compatibility. Even the complete platform switch betwen PPC and X86 allows us to build universal binaries.

Perhaps you have looked into all of this and still come to the conclusion that you dislike Apple. That's your perogative. When it has been my decision to make, I have developed Model stuff in a mix of C and Objective-C (easy to link), but GUI and graphics stuff pretty much has to be done in a platform-specific way (the one big criticism I raise.)

I don't mean to come across as an Apple fanboy. I'm actually a Linux fanboy

enemes · Post by **enemes** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:40 pm

Objective C... I can't believe Apple resurrected this language. Brings up lovely memories of Next. All I know is that despite what MAC folks would tell you, OSX is overly bloated inefficient beast. It looks terrible under the hood. The argument about UNIX roots is bogus as well -- they just put so much junk on top that it doesn't really matter what kernel is in there.

enemes · Post by **enemes** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:42 pm

And BTW, coding for OSX is not any worse than Linux. MS has advantage of all the available tools that are quite nice.

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:46 pm

Toxikator wrote:
james0tucson wrote:Sooner or later Gol will get his hands on a Macbook Pro, realize it's a good platform (fun to develop for; and I'm speaking as a MacOSX developer), and you might witness the abandonment of the Windows version.
Yeah, I'm sure he'll port hundreds of thousands of lines of code to a different language just for shits and giggles.

Seriously, though, before gol was a music developer he was a game developer. No one who has even the slightest interest in computer gaming bothers to look at a Macintosh. It may very well be deeply-ingrained contempt

Funny you should mention that. My current project happens to be a game targetted for MacOSX.

I love reading things that claim "no one" does this or that, when I happen to be one of the "nobodys" in question.

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:47 pm

enemes wrote:Objective C... I can't believe Apple resurrected this language. Brings up lovely memories of Next. All I know is that despite what MAC folks would tell you, OSX is overly bloated inefficient beast. It looks terrible under the hood. The argument about UNIX roots is bogus as well -- they just put so much junk on top that it doesn't really matter what kernel is in there.

That's your opinion as a developer?

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:59 pm

enemes wrote:And BTW, coding for OSX is not any worse than Linux. MS has advantage of all the available tools that are quite nice.

I like Visual Studio -- and I am *no* Microsoft fan, believe me. But I like Visual Studio a lot.

But on the Mac I really like XCode. I particularly appreciate the seamless integration between XCode and Interface Builder. Cranking out things like an MIS application (anything with form buttons and row-column tables and input fields and all the UI elements) is dead easy. Doing custom graphics is never easy on any platform, but it's certainly no worse on OSX. (Graphics is all about linear algebra and geometry, not about UI toolkits.)

Anyway, I actually do a lot of my design work in linux. I prefer using my (Linux) desktop to my (Mac) portable for most things. What that means, though, is I'm usually just in a terminal window with VIM. I'd do the same on any platform

Objective-C with GCC is exactly the same on Linux as on OSX, and all of the Foundation Class libraries match up. What this approach has done, is to enforce a clean separation between the "MacOSX" specific stuff, and the generic stuff.

Maybe I should do a host app for Mac and put my money where my mouth is. I have suggested it, but my investors and potential investors don't understand why anyone would do this when GarageBand and Logic are already seen as dominant players. I don't have time anyway, so I haven't argued.

And of course, I've already pissed of Gol so many times, I realize the prospect of moving to Belgium and working for him would be out of the question

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:07 pm

@james0Tuscon: It has nothing to do with how OSX and its languages work for developing new projects. The fact remains that Delphi is Windows-only and FL is written in Delphi, so compiling it for Mac means porting it to another language, which is something that I doubt he'd want to do.

enemes · Post by **enemes** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:07 pm

Yes, my opinion as a developer. And opinion of a very good friend who was working on one of the upcoming OSX features that are developed by another company. He's dealt with OSX internals in a bit of a more profound way that I had. And I very much trust his judgement.

Well the way I write code is sort of similar to you. I use SourceInsight on Windoze over samba-mounted files on a Linux machine. All editing is in SourceInsight (which I think is the best code editor in the world) All compilation and debugging is done on the Linux side. GDB is ugly but not that you have a lot of choice there.

Maadfoo · Post by **Maadfoo** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:15 pm

james0tucson wrote:
...and still come to the conclusion that you dislike Apple. That's your perogative.

I dislkie apple too...and that is my perogative

Bigg John · Post by **Bigg John** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:16 pm

tony tony chopper wrote:It's a technical restriction, as we've always said - no Delphi for Mac OS, so..

But even if I had the choice, I still wouldn't consider it. I've only heard crap about Mac programming, Apple apparently having no consideration for programmers or backwards compatibility. Basically totally the opposite of Microsoft.

I Love my Mac, but it's true. Steve Jobs does not like the word "legacy" .

enemes · Post by **enemes** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:21 pm

Steve Jobs... Who gives a shit what he likes. I was kicked out of Apple's parking lot for smoking. Security guard told me "Steve hates it when people smoke." WTF?

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:43 pm

"Hello, I'm a Mac..."
"and I'm a PC. You know, I sure do suck a lot. Like a whole lot. Damn, let me just embarass myself by revealing that I am somehow inferior"
"Yeah, you know, iProduct and all that, it's kind of like, you know, awesome"
"Yeah don't talk to me. I'm a PC and we're bad at something for some reason"

(Apple)

Those commercials are hilarious but really nothing but cheap shots.