u-he

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:02 pm

First synth in both examples is Zebra 2 - I can't same I'm fond of the sound myself...

Urs, thanks for going into more detail on this issue. As soon as I get the chance, I will try the techniques you outlined to approximate the sound further (about to leave for Christmas break). Your explanation of how the vibrato effect was created is also appreciated, I was unaware that pwm could create that side effect.

I don't think the dullness has anything to do with the modulation speed. There is a very clear difference in high quality content. that is present even without any modulation applied. And while you attribute the timbral qualities of the P53 osc to bugs or aliasing, I would say that it sounds very good regardless. I don't care if it doesn't sound like the actual hardware unit, but I do know it's been a staple synth of mine for years now. Being able to recreate that sound, again, is very important to me.

www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpadz2.mp3 <- end result of what I have so far, with Zebra 2

www.zirconstudios.com/pwmpad1.mp3 <- for reference

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:41 pm

Well, I'll try it as well when I have some free time... shouldn't be too hard to get exactly the same sound...

Urs

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:17 pm

zircon wrote:Still doesn't sound right... do you have Pro 53? I'm just trying to properly replicate a patch from that soundbank. Really, I STRONGLY encourage a better implementation of PWM for a future release. It should not take this much effort to create a simple preset using it!

I strongly disagree (sorry). However, I do think Urs could add a bit to the "manual" (not just an aside in the bit about Phase) to make it much more obvious how to achieve classic PWM.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:11 am

here is the audio from one of my pwm presets... it is not duplicating your preset, just I like it.

http://draigathar.org/zebra/pwm.mp3

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:42 am

Howard; how could there be harm in adding "easy" controls, or more traditional ones, as an option? Other synth manufacturers, such as NI, have done so for their more complex synthesizers like FM8. IMO it only expands the market for it. Frankly, as is, I would have a hard time recommending Zebra 2 for a novice synthesist looking for an all-around synth. It's quite powerful, moreso than almost anything I have used, but the lack of straightforward implementation for common synth features (another would be the lack of osc presets - why do I have to draw in waveforms every time I want to use them? Why not have a bank of, say, 50 waveforms accessible on right click?) hurts its potential.

Maybe I'm just being crazy here. I don't know. Obviously it is up to Urs to design the synth how he wants, and I am just one customer after all. But I do think my request(s) are not unreasonable, nor can I imagine that they are terribly hard to program. I could be wrong.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:53 am

zircon wrote:Howard; how could there be harm in adding "easy" controls, or more traditional ones, as an option? Other synth manufacturers, such as NI, have done so for their more complex synthesizers like FM8. IMO it only expands the market for it. Frankly, as is, I would have a hard time recommending Zebra 2 for a novice synthesist looking for an all-around synth. It's quite powerful, moreso than almost anything I have used, but the lack of straightforward implementation for common synth features (another would be the lack of osc presets - why do I have to draw in waveforms every time I want to use them? Why not have a bank of, say, 50 waveforms accessible on right click?) hurts its potential.

You can save osc waveforms and then pull them up when you want. What is missing is a ready set included with the synth, but that is something that is in the works I am sure, or conversely, any user could create a set and share them with others and which can be included with the synth.

I'm happy with the current method of pwm. It just needs to be more clearly stated in the manual. I have a number of saved osc's with pwm already set up and I just select one when I want. Again, a ready solution is a set of osc presets included with the synth.

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:20 am

zircon wrote:Howard; how could there be harm in adding "easy" controls, or more traditional ones, as an option? Other synth manufacturers, such as NI, have done so for their more complex synthesizers like FM8. IMO it only expands the market for it. Frankly, as is, I would have a hard time recommending Zebra 2 for a novice synthesist looking for an all-around synth.

Personally, I think Urs' highly generalized implementation of "Phase" is absolutely spot-on, that adding two extra controls would be a bad move. For a synth of this complexity, adding any such "features" to attract novices would be a bad move. All PWM needs is better documentation IMO. On the other hand, I do think there is room in the market for a much simpler synth (or two!) based on the Zebra2...

spritex · Post by **spritex** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:27 pm

+1 for some ready-made OSC presets. But I am sure they are coming because Urs has been asked this so many times. Somebody just has to make them and a sensible compilation has to be organised.

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:18 pm

Howard; Why would adding features to attract another chunk of the market be a bad move? It's not harming the existing market. Again to draw a parallel to FM8, anyone who used FM7 can find the exact same functionality with the same implementation. The main difference is that now, MORE people can access the sound engine without going deep into FM synthesis. I have yet to hear anyone complain, "FM8 added a more comprehensive "Easy Edit" page? Boo, I'm going to find another synth!" :p

Also yeah I know about the saving/loading of wavesets, but that's wave SETS right? Not individual waveforms? A set of ~20-30 or so that you could pull up from the main OSC controls (perhaps on the main tab) rather than going to to the bottom of the screen and selecting a whole waveset.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:27 pm

zircon wrote:
Also yeah I know about the saving/loading of wavesets, but that's wave SETS right? Not individual waveforms? A set of ~20-30 or so that you could pull up from the main OSC controls (perhaps on the main tab) rather than going to to the bottom of the screen and selecting a whole waveset.

you select (click for select, right click for save) the wavesets at the osc, just under the wave parameter. You are saving the osc settings, and this includes the waveset. So you can save a default osc with a single wave, or with 16 custom ones. You can save the osc with pwm already set up, or with oscFX, and so on.

Where this falls down, is if you want to load a particular wave to an osc that already has settings you want to keep. So it might be good to have an option when saving an osc, that you only save the waveset, or both (like current). Then you could just load a waveset.

You can copy paste a waveset from one osc to another. What you cannot do is copy a single wave into an existing waveset. Would be nice to address this if possible.

You can also make a default preset which has a default osc but with 16 preselected waveforms, sq, saw, sine, etc. and then just cycle through them with the osc wave parameter.

btw, you can actually save more than 16 waveforms with an osc because it will save both morph and blend modes so you can save 32 waveforms with an osc.

As for an 'easy' button, FM8 is a very different synth. It is not modular and is structured very differently. Zebra2 has its own logic.

In Zebra2, you have the performance page with 4 XY pads. So for example, for easy-ness, presets could have pwm set up and then connected to one of the XY performance pads which would make it very easy for the beginner to apply or not.

So again, I think it is a matter of providing solid sets of presets, osc presets, mseg presets etc (arp presets too?), in order to make Zebra2 a bit easier for the novice or for the performer who does not want to delve into the synth part that much.

cheers

beej · Post by **beej** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:07 pm

Interesting discussion, the PWM thing. I too, did the "Hmm, how do I get some PWM going then?" thing.

Now, if I was a programmer who knew that in digital terms, PWM is created by phase inverting two sawtooth waves, then I would have found it and been off and running.

However, I did not know this, and I think it's a pretty obscure thing for "musicians" to be expected to know - and the interface didn't tell me either - so it requires a trip to the manual to go hunting for PWM.

So I agree that, in GUI terms, it's not exactly "friendly". Perhaps some kind of "PWM" label on those controls, or as has already been suggested, some manual tips or FAQ's like "How can I get Zebra to do PWM?" would be beneficial to the less, er, geeky amongst us...

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:37 pm

Yeah, I suppose clearer documentation and more preset functionality (including PWM osc presets) would get the job done just as well as an "easy" page.

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:34 am

zircon wrote:Howard; Why would adding features to attract another chunk of the market be a bad move? It's not harming the existing market. Again to draw a parallel to FM8, anyone who used FM7 can find the exact same functionality with the same implementation. The main difference is that now, MORE people can access the sound engine without going deep into FM synthesis. I have yet to hear anyone complain, "FM8 added a more comprehensive "Easy Edit" page? Boo, I'm going to find another synth!" :p

I thought you were proposing that Urs should add more controls to the osc module - I assumed this because a central "easy edit" is totally unpractical in a modular synth (think about it).

zircon wrote: Also yeah I know about the saving/loading of wavesets, but that's wave SETS right? Not individual waveforms? A set of ~20-30 or so that you could pull up from the main OSC controls (perhaps on the main tab) rather than going to to the bottom of the screen and selecting a whole waveset.

I agree - loading/saving individual waves would be at least as useful as loading/saving wave sets.

BTW: It would also be nice to have a little FFT/resynthesis tool that semi-automatically "extracts" cycles (by recognizing consecutive zero-crossings) from WAV files and converts them into harmonics.

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:56 am

FM8 is modular to an extent, is it not? You can have a single osc going through effects, then output. Or 3 oscs in a complex RM/FM configuration going partially through a filter and then being output with no effects. Or 5 oscs, all modulating the 6th osc, going through two filters to separate degrees. Yet that synth still has some controls that alter harmonics/formant, amplitude and timbre envelope, and so forth on the "easy" page. I am sure a highly intelligent developer like Urs could figure it out for Z2.

That being said, again, some really well-designed OSC (and maybe filter) presets would do the job as well. Taking a page out of Albino or impOSCar's book would be great, with a collection of useful waveforms (traditional + additive) right at your fingertips.

beatz · Post by **beatz** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:53 pm

in all cases, NI is a team of people, producing excellent stuff(my favorite bing reaktor) and Urs is alone yet still producing excellent stuff !!

u-he

KVR Audio

Screwy PWM behavior?