Ableton live's automation limit

[Mr-Bit]

Hi I'm in the process of setting up my Bcr2000 controller with Zebra2 in Ableton and would like to have jumpless value changes.Assuming Z2 does not send out midi (for parameter feedback) I first set the knobs on the Bcr to send relative values and midi learned on Z2 these messages seemed incompatable with Z2(only jumping from max to min).So lastly I went to Ableton's Z2 automation, but live only displays the first 128 parameters and due to the order that Z2 list it's parameters some that I want are missing bummer
So my questions are
1. does Z2 support reletive cc's?
2. can Z2 send midi parameter feedback?
3. is it possible to edit which parameters are
the first 128 given to the host by Z2?

Thanks

[spritex]

Are the Zebra X/Y-controls among the 128 first parameters? If so, you could assign whatever parameters to them.

As a bonus, you could decide the controllers range.

[Urs]

That's a pretty complicated problem.

I have tried to convince my contacts at Ableton several times to support more than 128 parameters, but no go so far.

Unfortunately a plugin can not send Midi out of the host directly (at least, not with major hickups)

Let me think about it and come back shortly. Maybe I can come up with a solution other than XY mapping, but that will probably not be possible within a few hours (if at all)

Later,

Urs

[diverdee]

This is an issue that effects us Ableton users with a lot of the more complex synths.
A partial solution is to (dunno if this is possible) change the order in which parameters are displayed for vst automation.
In this case if the XY parameters, or any other user assignable parameters are the first in the list then any other parameter can be assigned to those & thus any parameter can be controlled (kind of a workaround).
There's a similar problem with big-ticks rhino, in that the user definable 'performance' parameters (the ones the preset author feels are the most important for tweaking & automating) are not among the first 128 vst automation parameters, thus one has to use abletons midi cc assignment scheme in order to automate them - which doesn't (from what I remember) support relative values.
One would hope that ableton will at some point at least allow users to choose which 128 parameters they can access, but that is a rather long standing feature request now, unfortunately.
Personally this has restricted my choice of soft synths, to the obvious detriment of some developers.

[swivel]

One solution is to use the energyxt VST within Live to 'wrap' the synth. You can then map controller numbers to the synth parameters of your choice.

[diverdee]

One solution is to use the energyxt VST within Live to 'wrap' the synth. You can then map controller numbers to the synth parameters of your choice.

Would those mapped parameters then show up as vst automation, or would they be midi automation?
I might have to try this for myself to see.

[spritex]

Only MIDI cc mapping I believe...

[diverdee]

No it actually works (experimenting with Rhino).
Using an M-audio Axiom 49 as a control surface, the rotaries as relative encoders.
First within Ableton Live turn off the control surface, but make sure that the keyboard is switched on as a midi input (in options > preferences > midi sync).
Instantiate Energy XT & load up the required vsti (in my case I used Rhino, which I have been playing around with).
Use any midi learn function the vsti has (in this case I set the first user defined automation control to respond to midi cc 110).
In EXT enable parameter to cc mapping & tick to use the required parameter.
Turn the control surface back on within Ableton Live.
Wrap the EnergyXT instance in an instrument rack.
enter map mode & map the requisite controller number to one of the eight macro knobs.
Jobs a 'good 'un' - one can now control any vsti automation parameter & utilise the functionality of relative controllers etc.
Sounds long winded (guess it is), but after doing it a few times it's easy as pie.
A combination of EXT & lives instrument racks is pretty powerful.
Still wish that Ableton would sort that shit out though.
I can actually really have a look at Zebra2 now, as this was one of the issues holding me back.

[pdxindy]

Are the Zebra X/Y-controls among the 128 first parameters? If so, you could assign whatever parameters to them.

As a bonus, you could decide the controllers range.

Yes, the XY's show up in Live near the top of the 128 list, so you can map anything to the Zebra XY's and automate the XY's in Live... and yes, you get the nice control over range in Zebra XY controls...

[Mr-Bit]

Thanks for the replies folks.
I wanted to save the XY's for multi performance maps,so I will check energy xt which I know nothing about.
But the most elegant solution for me would be to rearrange the order that Z2 give out it's parameters,some sort of config text/script in the program file would be good.
Urs I realize that the way Z2 is built may not easily allow this,but if you could, it would proberbly attract allot of ableton users to zebra

[Urs]

Thanks for the replies folks.
I wanted to save the XY's for multi performance maps,so I will check energy xt which I know nothing about.
But the most elegant solution for me would be to rearrange the order that Z2 give out it's parameters,some sort of config text/script in the program file would be good.
Urs I realize that the way Z2 is built may not easily allow this,but if you could, it would proberbly attract allot of ableton users to zebra

Yes, I was thinking about something along the lines.

I'm just running out of time for the update season before my first big vacation in years, so I can't promise anything before March...

[spritex]

I wonder if Ableton Live is the expection or the norm in this 128 parameter limit?

[Mr-Bit]

I think Ableton is the exception,it was limited to fit their gui due to the massive scroll needed for some synths with lots of parameters.
Ableton should give us the option to show/hide the parameters over the 128 limit,
Urs your a star for considering a fix for Abletons shorfall, have a good break.

[Tarekith]

The Virus TI plug in lets the user pick which parameters get added to the list of 128. Downside is that you can't just grab any parameter and expect it to automate, you need to add it to the automation list first.

[beej]

I think some of the NI stuff works like that too, including Reaktor and Kontakt, from my (foggy) memory...