Rajiv wrote:
Hope these thoughts help.
They sure do, thanks.
Im writing down a"things to reflect upon and strategies to try" list as we speak
A request: Intro to bassline "theory"
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1334 posts since 5 May, 2004 from fighting the kVr disInfo
They sure do, thanks.
Im writing down a"things to reflect upon and strategies to try" list as we speak
i am me and i am free...k thx bai
-
- KVRist
- 434 posts since 14 Sep, 2005
For most Blues influenced Rock or pop music, I tend to use the Blues scale as a way of creating bass lines. Obviously, there'll be times when the blues scale doesn't fit...
You know about the Blues scale, right? There'll be a thread about it on this forum somewhere.
When going from one chord to another, you might just want to stick in the tone or semi-tone before the chord you're about to hit... does that make sense?
A classic and fairly corny bass line would start with the Root and drop to the 5th. You know the kind of Oom Pah sound you get in country or folk music? In the key of C it would be C then G.
Well the beauty of this simple bass line is it puts you closer to other chords. So if you need to leap from a C chord to an Ab you can use the G note to get you there smoothly.
Blues Scale in C - C,Eb,F,F#,G,Bb,C
Just play around with Blues scale and see what happens. In general, I'd say, the simpler the bass line the better.
You know about the Blues scale, right? There'll be a thread about it on this forum somewhere.
When going from one chord to another, you might just want to stick in the tone or semi-tone before the chord you're about to hit... does that make sense?
A classic and fairly corny bass line would start with the Root and drop to the 5th. You know the kind of Oom Pah sound you get in country or folk music? In the key of C it would be C then G.
Well the beauty of this simple bass line is it puts you closer to other chords. So if you need to leap from a C chord to an Ab you can use the G note to get you there smoothly.
Blues Scale in C - C,Eb,F,F#,G,Bb,C
Just play around with Blues scale and see what happens. In general, I'd say, the simpler the bass line the better.
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1334 posts since 5 May, 2004 from fighting the kVr disInfo
thanks sonarman i'll look into that... im "familiar" with the blues scale if you will, but have not used it alot..here my chance i guess
good tips
good tips
i am me and i am free...k thx bai
-
JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
The bassline is probably the most important part after the melody. It needs care and consideration to sound good. Creating a good bass line is an art form in itself, and can often make or break the music.
Instruments which may play basslines include: Bass Guitar, Bass Clarinet, Contrabass Clarinet, Baritone Saxophone, Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Bass Trombone, Tuba, Piano, Cello and Double Bass.
Note though, when we talk about the 'bass' of a chord, it always means the lowest note at that point. - This is usually in the bassline, but not always (if you cross parts). Instruments such as Timpani, Marimba, Harp, Horn and Guitar may possibly overlap with a high bassline. Generally though, the bassline will play the bass of the chord, and this is good practice to follow.
The bass is strongly linked to harmony. Remember from music theory that there are different inversions of chords. The inversion is completely dependent on which note of the chord is the lowest (in the bass).
If the root of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'root position'. The suffix 'a' is added to the Roman numeral.
If the 3rd of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'first inversion'. The suffix 'b' is added to the Roman numeral.
If the 5th of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'second inversion'. The suffix 'c' is added to the Roman numeral.
With seventh chords, if the 7th of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'third inversion'. The suffix 'd' is added to the Roman numeral.
Root position chords are strongest, followed by first inversions. Generally, you should have a healthy mix of root position and 1st inversion chords. - This means, the bass will sometimes play the root of the chord, and other times it will play the 3rd of the chord.
Second inversion chords are weakest and unstable. Because of this, they should be used infrequently, and with care. Generally, there are only two situations in which second inversion chords can be used. The first is as part of a cadence (Eg. Ic-V-I). The second is in a passing context.
Ic may be used between IVa and IVb (either way round. Note the bass moves by step).
Vc may be used between Ia and Ib (either way round. V7c may be used too. Note the bass moves by step).
In both cases, the second inversion chord should be on a weak beat.
Third inversion of seventh chords must resolve to 1st inversion chords (so that the seventh can fall a step.) Eg. V7d-Ib.
Obviously, if you have a bass below the piano (or guitar or whatever), it doesn't really matter what notes the piano is playing. - The inversion is purely dependant on whatever note is lowest, so the piano can play the notes G-C-E, but as long as there is a C below that first G, the chord will still be in root position. - In such cases, the lowest piano note often doubles the note in the bass, but it doesn't have to. - Sometimes the position of the chords are chosen so they are easiest to play; so the hands can reach all the notes easily.
The bass is part of the harmony. - You cannot have one without the other. For this reason, it is usually a good idea to consider the bass line at the same time you are considering the harmony (or vice versa). A chord sequence may sound amazing, but if it results in a sloppy bassline, the overall result may not be very nice.
Generally speaking, the more complex (more chromatic) the harmony, the simpler the accompaniment should be.
The practice of Voice-Leading/Part-Writing is especially important to basslines. It is usually best when they move by step, although occasional leaps are permitted (but not too many, unless this is part of the style).
Be careful with the chord of Vb to make sure it doesn't involve any forbidden melodic interval (e.g.. augmented 4ths).
Parallel 4ths, 5ths or octaves must not occur between the bass and any other part.
Chord vii in root position is a diminished chord, and should be used with care. In a major key, it must be preceded by ii or IVb, and in a minor key it can only be preceded by ivb. The 5th must be prepared and resolved down by step to the 3rd of chord I. Double only the 3rd of viia.
viib should be followed by chords Ia, Ib or vi in a major key, or just ia or ib in a minor key.
Chord iii also needs care, as does chord iia in a minor key.
Chord VIb must be followed by chord IIa, unless it occurs in series of 1st inversion chords.
Double the bass:
- In chord viib
- In chord iiib
- In all second inversion chords
Basslines benefit from the insertion of Non-harmony notes. - Passing notes are especially important in achieving a good flow (and to make the bass move by step). Note though, these unessential notes do not form part of the harmony. - That is, the chord is still the same (and in the same inversion) even when passing notes are used in the bass.
There are many different styles of bass:
A long note in the bass may be a pedal point.
The walking bass is common in jazz music.
Another style of bass involves alternating (usually descending) between the root and 5th of the chord; eg C, G, C, G, C, G...
Ostinatos, drones and riffs are also possible.
Sometimes the bass may have the same rhythm as the melody, other-times it will be completely different; perhaps even providing a counter-melody. - Good advice would be the have the bass move when the melody is not doing much, and vice versa.
Although the bass should always be audible (more so than the middle parts), it should not detract attention from the melody (unless a deliberate part of the style of music you're writing). - The bass and melody should work together, complimenting each other.
Contrary motion between the bass and the melody (or as many other parts as possible) is generally a good idea.
The bass and melody must not approach a perfect 5th or octave in similar motion, except when the melody moves by step.
Avoid the roots of chords rising a third from a weak beat to a strong beat in root position chords.
Avoid the bass note of a chord on a strong beat the same as the bass note of the preceding weak beat (unless a dissonance is involved).
Generally, the bass should flow. - It should be treated as a melody in its own right, and should sound good even when played solo. Certainly the bass and melody alone, without any other parts, should sound good by themselves. The bass should not just provide the basis of the harmony; it should be interesting, not random and all over the place.
Instruments which may play basslines include: Bass Guitar, Bass Clarinet, Contrabass Clarinet, Baritone Saxophone, Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Bass Trombone, Tuba, Piano, Cello and Double Bass.
Note though, when we talk about the 'bass' of a chord, it always means the lowest note at that point. - This is usually in the bassline, but not always (if you cross parts). Instruments such as Timpani, Marimba, Harp, Horn and Guitar may possibly overlap with a high bassline. Generally though, the bassline will play the bass of the chord, and this is good practice to follow.
The bass is strongly linked to harmony. Remember from music theory that there are different inversions of chords. The inversion is completely dependent on which note of the chord is the lowest (in the bass).
If the root of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'root position'. The suffix 'a' is added to the Roman numeral.
If the 3rd of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'first inversion'. The suffix 'b' is added to the Roman numeral.
If the 5th of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'second inversion'. The suffix 'c' is added to the Roman numeral.
With seventh chords, if the 7th of the chord is lowest, the chord is in 'third inversion'. The suffix 'd' is added to the Roman numeral.
Root position chords are strongest, followed by first inversions. Generally, you should have a healthy mix of root position and 1st inversion chords. - This means, the bass will sometimes play the root of the chord, and other times it will play the 3rd of the chord.
Second inversion chords are weakest and unstable. Because of this, they should be used infrequently, and with care. Generally, there are only two situations in which second inversion chords can be used. The first is as part of a cadence (Eg. Ic-V-I). The second is in a passing context.
Ic may be used between IVa and IVb (either way round. Note the bass moves by step).
Vc may be used between Ia and Ib (either way round. V7c may be used too. Note the bass moves by step).
In both cases, the second inversion chord should be on a weak beat.
Third inversion of seventh chords must resolve to 1st inversion chords (so that the seventh can fall a step.) Eg. V7d-Ib.
Obviously, if you have a bass below the piano (or guitar or whatever), it doesn't really matter what notes the piano is playing. - The inversion is purely dependant on whatever note is lowest, so the piano can play the notes G-C-E, but as long as there is a C below that first G, the chord will still be in root position. - In such cases, the lowest piano note often doubles the note in the bass, but it doesn't have to. - Sometimes the position of the chords are chosen so they are easiest to play; so the hands can reach all the notes easily.
The bass is part of the harmony. - You cannot have one without the other. For this reason, it is usually a good idea to consider the bass line at the same time you are considering the harmony (or vice versa). A chord sequence may sound amazing, but if it results in a sloppy bassline, the overall result may not be very nice.
Generally speaking, the more complex (more chromatic) the harmony, the simpler the accompaniment should be.
The practice of Voice-Leading/Part-Writing is especially important to basslines. It is usually best when they move by step, although occasional leaps are permitted (but not too many, unless this is part of the style).
Be careful with the chord of Vb to make sure it doesn't involve any forbidden melodic interval (e.g.. augmented 4ths).
Parallel 4ths, 5ths or octaves must not occur between the bass and any other part.
Chord vii in root position is a diminished chord, and should be used with care. In a major key, it must be preceded by ii or IVb, and in a minor key it can only be preceded by ivb. The 5th must be prepared and resolved down by step to the 3rd of chord I. Double only the 3rd of viia.
viib should be followed by chords Ia, Ib or vi in a major key, or just ia or ib in a minor key.
Chord iii also needs care, as does chord iia in a minor key.
Chord VIb must be followed by chord IIa, unless it occurs in series of 1st inversion chords.
Double the bass:
- In chord viib
- In chord iiib
- In all second inversion chords
Basslines benefit from the insertion of Non-harmony notes. - Passing notes are especially important in achieving a good flow (and to make the bass move by step). Note though, these unessential notes do not form part of the harmony. - That is, the chord is still the same (and in the same inversion) even when passing notes are used in the bass.
There are many different styles of bass:
A long note in the bass may be a pedal point.
The walking bass is common in jazz music.
Another style of bass involves alternating (usually descending) between the root and 5th of the chord; eg C, G, C, G, C, G...
Ostinatos, drones and riffs are also possible.
Sometimes the bass may have the same rhythm as the melody, other-times it will be completely different; perhaps even providing a counter-melody. - Good advice would be the have the bass move when the melody is not doing much, and vice versa.
Although the bass should always be audible (more so than the middle parts), it should not detract attention from the melody (unless a deliberate part of the style of music you're writing). - The bass and melody should work together, complimenting each other.
Contrary motion between the bass and the melody (or as many other parts as possible) is generally a good idea.
The bass and melody must not approach a perfect 5th or octave in similar motion, except when the melody moves by step.
Avoid the roots of chords rising a third from a weak beat to a strong beat in root position chords.
Avoid the bass note of a chord on a strong beat the same as the bass note of the preceding weak beat (unless a dissonance is involved).
Generally, the bass should flow. - It should be treated as a melody in its own right, and should sound good even when played solo. Certainly the bass and melody alone, without any other parts, should sound good by themselves. The bass should not just provide the basis of the harmony; it should be interesting, not random and all over the place.
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1334 posts since 5 May, 2004 from fighting the kVr disInfo
Jumping jack Flash-- That is a master's post. thanks SO much for this...
printing this soon I really appreciate it
printing this soon
I really appreciate iti am me and i am free...k thx bai
-
- KVRist
- 149 posts since 27 Jan, 2007 from Eyeth
It is also good to mention that while the intervals soprano-alto and alto-tenor generally shouldn't exceed an octave, the interval tenor-bass could be greater (10th - 12th), in some cases up to two octaves - something natural and in agreement with the spacing in the overtone series.
I would say that one should try to compose the bass line as a counterpoint to the melody. As an outer voice, the bass attracts attention and should be interesting, but its main role is to provide harmonic basis, so it must not distract the attention from the melody, as it was already mentioned, unless it is the melody (the melody can be in a voice other than soprano but while in the first case we hear it naturally clear, in that case it usually should be louder in order to be perceived well).
Second inversion chords classically cannot be used freely, there are mainly four situations when they can be used: cadential chord, passing, auxilary, arpeggiated.
I would say that one should try to compose the bass line as a counterpoint to the melody. As an outer voice, the bass attracts attention and should be interesting, but its main role is to provide harmonic basis, so it must not distract the attention from the melody, as it was already mentioned, unless it is the melody (the melody can be in a voice other than soprano but while in the first case we hear it naturally clear, in that case it usually should be louder in order to be perceived well).
Second inversion chords classically cannot be used freely, there are mainly four situations when they can be used: cadential chord, passing, auxilary, arpeggiated.
-
- KVRAF
- 25007 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
not neccessarily so - when the bass is playing something complementary (to the rhythm and/or the chords and/or the melody) it might sound poo on its own - I think reggae-bass might often provide a good example for this...JumpingJackFlash wrote: Generally, the bass should flow. - It should be treated as a melody in its own right, and should sound good even when played solo. Certainly the bass and melody alone, without any other parts, should sound good by themselves.
also I think sometimes it's good when the bass is broing because it doesn't distract from the rest of the music but merely provides a sane fundament...
Allen, do you remember the song I posted in the eXT-forum a while ago which I did with my girl-friend? ( http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167189 - I just realized I forgot to reply to the thread
) She's not only singing but also playing the bass-guitar and she's a total beginner who can't really play in comparison to me but I like her playing especially because it is so reduced - I could never do that...
-
- KVRist
- 79 posts since 1 Mar, 2005 from Toronto Ontario
JJF: This isn't the first time I've heard/seen referance to rules that seem pretty hard and fast. How hard and fast are the Forbidden Interval" rules, and where do they apply (ie. can you get away with them in industrial music or noise). Why are they forbidden?
(And yes, I know I'm somewhat hi-jacking the thread, please forgive.
(And yes, I know I'm somewhat hi-jacking the thread, please forgive.
Accept no substitutes
-
- KVRist
- 144 posts since 17 Nov, 2000 from Chicago IL
All this "intro to..." stuff reffers to classical music theory. Keep in mind that in western music the first ones who thought of studying music and theorizing about it were the monks because the use of music in the Christian churches was essential. Everything had to be perfect and therefore no "bad" intervals were allowed. The 4+ or 5- were also called as "the devil's intervals" or "the devil in music". Using those intervals in a holly mass context could ensure you a trip to the burning stake.exquisiteoath wrote:JJF: This isn't the first time I've heard/seen referance to rules that seem pretty hard and fast. How hard and fast are the Forbidden Interval" rules, and where do they apply (ie. can you get away with them in industrial music or noise). Why are they forbidden?
(And yes, I know I'm somewhat hi-jacking the thread, please forgive.
So yes, once long ago there were extremely hard lines on the forbidden intervals.
Today musical rules are merely rules and to quote from a great movie "they are more of a guideline". If it sounds good that means it's good. For example even Bach had broken rules in his writings just because they sounded better to him then if he kept the rules intact.
-
JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
What Adaerus said was true. The forbidden intervals were originally used in reference to singing; it is very had to sing an interval like a diminished 4th for example, so they weren't written very often.exquisiteoath wrote:JJF: This isn't the first time I've heard/seen referance to rules that seem pretty hard and fast. How hard and fast are the Forbidden Interval" rules, and where do they apply (ie. can you get away with them in industrial music or noise). Why are they forbidden?
(And yes, I know I'm somewhat hi-jacking the thread, please forgive.
Most of my posts do refer to classical theory, that's true, but much of it can be applied to music in other styles too. An augmented 4th for example is very rarely going to sound good in any sort of music, unless used for a specific effect (and/or treated in a certain way).
Of course, the most important rule, as always, is "There are exceptions to every rule". With experience comes the wisdom to know which rules to break and when. Also, "if it sounds good, it is good" is a very important rule too, and your ear should always be the deciding factor. - You can think of my posts as suggestions on where to start, - they are not meant to be obeyed always in every circumstance without question (no rules are, even laws).
In most modern music, you can generally get away with whatever you like. - As long as it doesn't sound bad, it's fine. Very few people are going to come along and criticise your music for having these forbidden intervals, or for breaking any other rule of music theory for that matter.
-
- KVRist
- 79 posts since 1 Mar, 2005 from Toronto Ontario
Thank you both. Your answers were very helpful and make things make much more sense.
Accept no substitutes