torn between two mixers
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thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240 - KVRAF
- 37262 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from Scottish Borders
I've owned 2 behringer mixing desks ... MX2642A and MX802A. Both have been used in the studio and at lots of gigs for years, and are totally reliable. I have no complaints about them, soundwise or otherwise. For some reason Mackie owners (who paid 3 to 4 times as much for the same thing) don't like them ...
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- KVRAF
- 8731 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Behringer is not junk by a very long shot. personally I rate their mixers somewhere between awful and terrible, but some of their other stuff is very useable.
The bad rep comes from idiots who buy something very cheap and then try and compare it with something very expensive. Which is doomed to failure.
You buy Behringer because you can't afford the flash gear at the time. And for that price Behringer is fine. In fact it compares quite well with other gear at the same price range. Usually it compares well because it is similar qulity but gives you more features for the exact same money.
As for reliability. It really is bullshit. I've found some Behringer units to be extremely reliable. Here's a comparison: I have an old Behringer Composer. I don't use it at all nowadays...I have far better comps. In comparison to my other comps, the sound is really quite dull and unuseable. However, at the price i bought it for at the time, it was fine. But here's the point. I have another compressor which i really like - a LA4C. Cost 3 or 4 times the price of the Behringer. Bought them both maybe 10 years ago now. I won't compare the sound or features between the two - they're completely different beasts. But...for a few years, I didn't get any of my h/w out of their boxes. When I did, the Behringer worked exactly as it did the day I bought it. All the pots worked, nothing broken etc. The LA comp...almost all of the pots had stiffened up. At first it was a bastard to use as every time you moved a pot, A) it crackled, and B) you couldn't set it finely because it was so stiff. After a few weeks use, the pots fortunately did loosen up without me having to take everything apart and grease them (thank ****
).
I still don't use the Behringer, and I still use other comps in preference every time, simply because they were bought as character comps and for specific features and sound. But several other units I had have given me gyp. I've had a Lexicon unit that has lost function after being forced to use it in a dark cold cellar in an English winter. I've had an old Studiomaster desk with an internal PSU go kaput. Had to have it fixed because of the noise it gave out, and due to it being internal, there really was no option. Had midi routers go kaput. Had an OSCar that wouldn't send out reliable midi information via its thru port if the tempo was anything above 128bpm. Got a Wavestation with 2.5 dodgy keys and a screen that's been dying for 4 years now.
Guess what? Got 2 Behringer units and not a one of them has ever had a single thing wrong with them. The Composer still sounds crap, but still works perfectly. The quadgate (which had alot of use back in the day, when I was all h/w and had to use gates for everything) still works perfectly. And because it's a gate, it works as well as almost any other gate (I could never get excited about Db gates etc). All the pots are smooth, and all the gating works. And I got twice as many gates on it for less price than any other competition at the time.
My personal experience...Behringer can sound poor compared to the good stuff (but what budget gear doesn't?) but it has been the most reliable gear I've ever bought. if you buy something for $150 and compare it to a $500 unit, you're an idiot. Compare a $150 Behringer unit with another $150 unit, and it will likely stand up very well in comparison.
Having said that...I think Behringer mixers are noisy and the Eq is very flabby - especially the bass. But I personally wouldn't buy any mixer at that price point, and expect it to be any good.
Bear in mind that Behringer is cheap, so you get cheap quality and you can't go wrong. If you buy a Behringer mixer, you can probably at least expect it to still work in 5 years time...some other gear that costs more, you simply can't say that.
The bad rep comes from idiots who buy something very cheap and then try and compare it with something very expensive. Which is doomed to failure.
You buy Behringer because you can't afford the flash gear at the time. And for that price Behringer is fine. In fact it compares quite well with other gear at the same price range. Usually it compares well because it is similar qulity but gives you more features for the exact same money.
As for reliability. It really is bullshit. I've found some Behringer units to be extremely reliable. Here's a comparison: I have an old Behringer Composer. I don't use it at all nowadays...I have far better comps. In comparison to my other comps, the sound is really quite dull and unuseable. However, at the price i bought it for at the time, it was fine. But here's the point. I have another compressor which i really like - a LA4C. Cost 3 or 4 times the price of the Behringer. Bought them both maybe 10 years ago now. I won't compare the sound or features between the two - they're completely different beasts. But...for a few years, I didn't get any of my h/w out of their boxes. When I did, the Behringer worked exactly as it did the day I bought it. All the pots worked, nothing broken etc. The LA comp...almost all of the pots had stiffened up. At first it was a bastard to use as every time you moved a pot, A) it crackled, and B) you couldn't set it finely because it was so stiff. After a few weeks use, the pots fortunately did loosen up without me having to take everything apart and grease them (thank ****
).I still don't use the Behringer, and I still use other comps in preference every time, simply because they were bought as character comps and for specific features and sound. But several other units I had have given me gyp. I've had a Lexicon unit that has lost function after being forced to use it in a dark cold cellar in an English winter. I've had an old Studiomaster desk with an internal PSU go kaput. Had to have it fixed because of the noise it gave out, and due to it being internal, there really was no option. Had midi routers go kaput. Had an OSCar that wouldn't send out reliable midi information via its thru port if the tempo was anything above 128bpm. Got a Wavestation with 2.5 dodgy keys and a screen that's been dying for 4 years now.
Guess what? Got 2 Behringer units and not a one of them has ever had a single thing wrong with them. The Composer still sounds crap, but still works perfectly. The quadgate (which had alot of use back in the day, when I was all h/w and had to use gates for everything) still works perfectly. And because it's a gate, it works as well as almost any other gate (I could never get excited about Db gates etc). All the pots are smooth, and all the gating works. And I got twice as many gates on it for less price than any other competition at the time.
My personal experience...Behringer can sound poor compared to the good stuff (but what budget gear doesn't?) but it has been the most reliable gear I've ever bought. if you buy something for $150 and compare it to a $500 unit, you're an idiot. Compare a $150 Behringer unit with another $150 unit, and it will likely stand up very well in comparison.
Having said that...I think Behringer mixers are noisy and the Eq is very flabby - especially the bass. But I personally wouldn't buy any mixer at that price point, and expect it to be any good.
Bear in mind that Behringer is cheap, so you get cheap quality and you can't go wrong. If you buy a Behringer mixer, you can probably at least expect it to still work in 5 years time...some other gear that costs more, you simply can't say that.
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- KVRist
- 97 posts since 24 Jun, 2006
Also, let it be known right now, (maybe some already do!) .
One of the primary reason a Behringer desk is AWESOME, is because years back,
One of there Main designers came from Mackie to work with behringer! This is a FACT.
I forget exactly the detasils, but I do know, the first project was to duplicate the
Studio Mack (24 & 32 ch.) mixng Consoles . I think the Behringer version is that MX-9000.
I personally own a 48 channel Mackie and Also this MX 9000.
.... I use the 9000, it rocks and co$t so much less, and has been a reliable workhorse
for me now, say maybe 5-6 years!!!
Hell if it wasnt for Behringer, half the PC-bedroom fanatics here, would just NOT have
any quality to speak of in there worx.... Because the OVERPRICED Mackie Crap, is just that!!
6 6 6
One of the primary reason a Behringer desk is AWESOME, is because years back,
One of there Main designers came from Mackie to work with behringer! This is a FACT.
I forget exactly the detasils, but I do know, the first project was to duplicate the
Studio Mack (24 & 32 ch.) mixng Consoles . I think the Behringer version is that MX-9000.
I personally own a 48 channel Mackie and Also this MX 9000.
.... I use the 9000, it rocks and co$t so much less, and has been a reliable workhorse
for me now, say maybe 5-6 years!!!
Hell if it wasnt for Behringer, half the PC-bedroom fanatics here, would just NOT have
any quality to speak of in there worx.... Because the OVERPRICED Mackie Crap, is just that!!
6 6 6
space for rent!!
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- KVRAF
- 8731 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Hmmm...dunno about Behringer desks being AWESOME. I'll defend Behringer against the usual net myths, but IMO their mixers are their worst offerings. I'd happily use some of the Behringer FX, even the comps if I had to, as I mentioned, the Quadgate was a revelation. Sounds like some of the newer digital stuff is quite good, and I know of some users of their programmable patchbays that swear by them.
I nearly bought a small mixer again (had to leave behind the big mixer when I came to NZ. Had no room in the container unfortunately, so sold it). I went to a few shops and tested quite alot of the usual suspects - Mackies, Behringers, Alesises(es?), Spirits etc. And honestly I was dismayed by the Behringer desks. The channel bleed between two adjacent channels was absolutely heinous. I couldn't use any mixer with bleeding that bad. Strangely, it didn't seem to bleed across more than 2 channels (I can't figure out why... ). But turn up one channel to full, mute it, and listen on any adjacent channel soloed...and the hiss is horrific. The Eq...horrible. The mids were at best acceptable (but alot of that is down to taste - not all other mixers have that good a mid Eq either. The high was OK - not at all good, but OK and useable. The bass - anything more than a 3 or 4 dB boost on the bass was simply flabby, wobbly and sounded like a 200Kg Texan on the toilet. They must use a huge Q setting. Any boost makes you sound like a TV advert - all boomy and irritating by anyone's standards. It might cut OK, but I'd be wary of cutting any bass frequencies at that wide a Q because it would simply cut so much of the good stuff in the lower mids. Every single other mixer I tried could be liked or disliked by subjective choice in terms of Eq - they all had their own character, but the quality itself was on a rough par. But the Behringer Eq was just unuseable IMO. Simply unuseable.
There was quite alot of aux send noise going on in there too. With no FX or anything attached, if you turn up the send to max, then turn up the channel it's on to max...again you get intrusive noise. And all of that happened on the small mixers right up to the larger Eurodesk 24channel ones. Yet I was pleasantly surprised by the increase in quality of some of the other manufacturers. They've really pulled their socks up in the past few years...I was used to big desks and a certain quality, and there used to be a big step from real budget and small to even midrange and small. Some of those new small mixers can be damnably good quality for not much money now. Apart from the Eqs, some of them are up to the quality you got from a big desk 10 times the price only 10 years ago.
Behringer desks are a long way from AWESOME. It's the single area where Behringer really do live up to the bad reputation they unjustly have. Yet they can make really useable and value units in other areas. I suspect the mixers have a good build quality...I have no reason to doubt the sturdiness of many a Behringer unit. As stated...they are the only company I've ever bought from that have NEVER had a breakdown or repair needed. But for the price of a budget Behringer desk...for a small extra sum you can get much better subjective and objective quality. Folios, Mackies, almost anything will have less noise and more musical Eq than Behringer IMO.
On any desk, no matter how small - don't be swayed by features and gizmos. You need to test basics like like noise and bleed across channels. You need to test Eq by boosting to levels you normally wouldn't use, and do it with familiar material. Then make up your mind. I did (and I did it with no Behringer bias...if anything, I railed against the standard myth of Behringer=crap). Every company has their strengths and weaknesses. Mixers are not Behringer's strength...they merely give you twice as many features as other mixers at the same price.
I nearly bought a small mixer again (had to leave behind the big mixer when I came to NZ. Had no room in the container unfortunately, so sold it). I went to a few shops and tested quite alot of the usual suspects - Mackies, Behringers, Alesises(es?), Spirits etc. And honestly I was dismayed by the Behringer desks. The channel bleed between two adjacent channels was absolutely heinous. I couldn't use any mixer with bleeding that bad. Strangely, it didn't seem to bleed across more than 2 channels (I can't figure out why...
). But turn up one channel to full, mute it, and listen on any adjacent channel soloed...and the hiss is horrific. The Eq...horrible. The mids were at best acceptable (but alot of that is down to taste - not all other mixers have that good a mid Eq either. The high was OK - not at all good, but OK and useable. The bass - anything more than a 3 or 4 dB boost on the bass was simply flabby, wobbly and sounded like a 200Kg Texan on the toilet. They must use a huge Q setting. Any boost makes you sound like a TV advert - all boomy and irritating by anyone's standards. It might cut OK, but I'd be wary of cutting any bass frequencies at that wide a Q because it would simply cut so much of the good stuff in the lower mids. Every single other mixer I tried could be liked or disliked by subjective choice in terms of Eq - they all had their own character, but the quality itself was on a rough par. But the Behringer Eq was just unuseable IMO. Simply unuseable.There was quite alot of aux send noise going on in there too. With no FX or anything attached, if you turn up the send to max, then turn up the channel it's on to max...again you get intrusive noise. And all of that happened on the small mixers right up to the larger Eurodesk 24channel ones. Yet I was pleasantly surprised by the increase in quality of some of the other manufacturers. They've really pulled their socks up in the past few years...I was used to big desks and a certain quality, and there used to be a big step from real budget and small to even midrange and small. Some of those new small mixers can be damnably good quality for not much money now. Apart from the Eqs, some of them are up to the quality you got from a big desk 10 times the price only 10 years ago.
Behringer desks are a long way from AWESOME. It's the single area where Behringer really do live up to the bad reputation they unjustly have. Yet they can make really useable and value units in other areas. I suspect the mixers have a good build quality...I have no reason to doubt the sturdiness of many a Behringer unit. As stated...they are the only company I've ever bought from that have NEVER had a breakdown or repair needed. But for the price of a budget Behringer desk...for a small extra sum you can get much better subjective and objective quality. Folios, Mackies, almost anything will have less noise and more musical Eq than Behringer IMO.
On any desk, no matter how small - don't be swayed by features and gizmos. You need to test basics like like noise and bleed across channels. You need to test Eq by boosting to levels you normally wouldn't use, and do it with familiar material. Then make up your mind. I did (and I did it with no Behringer bias...if anything, I railed against the standard myth of Behringer=crap). Every company has their strengths and weaknesses. Mixers are not Behringer's strength...they merely give you twice as many features as other mixers at the same price.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 535 posts since 15 Jul, 2003 from costa rica / oregon
the 1200's are on a pioneer mixer.where02190 wrote:Good and Behringer are not interchangable.
You'll need a separate phono preamp no matter what mixer you choose, they don't have pres for turntables typically.
paz por esos mundos
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- KVRian
- 581 posts since 8 Dec, 2004
I've been using a Mackie 1202VLZPro for 9 years now, for recording at home and live, for live submixing at punk gigs and recording live acoustic guitar/vocal stuff. There is no crosstalk between channels, the mic preamps are extremely quiet and transparent and it works as well as the day I unpacked it. I have also used a Behringer VAmp2 for recording for some time, and it has served its' purpose without complaining.
Coffee please, black, no sugar.
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- KVRAF
- 8731 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
And going back to the original question.
Out of the two, I'd definitely rather have the Mackie than the Behringer. I'm not a great fan of Mackies though...they're decent quality, and what I'd class as pretty clean and clear (I mean the Eq...any mixer should be clear and clean in sound transmission). There's not that much on a Mackie that shouts out any kind of character.
http://www.fleetsound.com/catalogue.asp ... ll&ID=2470
I spotted this on a quick surf for Soundcrafts. I'm not entirely sure of their complete Folio range...at one stage they seemed to bring a new one out every week. And some of the smaller ones have only pots and no faders (not good for mixing with). But I really did like the Eqs on the Folios compared to other mixers at similar prices. I thought they were very sweet little mixers. I didn't buy one, by the way, just so you know I have no bias etc. I simply liked what I heard after several days trying out all the competition. I think if I bought a small mixer, it would probably be a Folio of some kind...I simply never bought one, because I still can't make up my mind whether to just jump in and buy another large desk again or not. (decisions, decisions... )
But this site has (used) Folios for US$179. Seems a very good price compared to a new mixer with less channels etc, and worse Eq. Those Mackies are what? $200 IIRC.
Just a thought...
Out of the two, I'd definitely rather have the Mackie than the Behringer. I'm not a great fan of Mackies though...they're decent quality, and what I'd class as pretty clean and clear (I mean the Eq...any mixer should be clear and clean in sound transmission). There's not that much on a Mackie that shouts out any kind of character.
http://www.fleetsound.com/catalogue.asp ... ll&ID=2470
I spotted this on a quick surf for Soundcrafts. I'm not entirely sure of their complete Folio range...at one stage they seemed to bring a new one out every week. And some of the smaller ones have only pots and no faders (not good for mixing with). But I really did like the Eqs on the Folios compared to other mixers at similar prices. I thought they were very sweet little mixers. I didn't buy one, by the way, just so you know I have no bias etc. I simply liked what I heard after several days trying out all the competition. I think if I bought a small mixer, it would probably be a Folio of some kind...I simply never bought one, because I still can't make up my mind whether to just jump in and buy another large desk again or not. (decisions, decisions...
)But this site has (used) Folios for US$179. Seems a very good price compared to a new mixer with less channels etc, and worse Eq. Those Mackies are what? $200 IIRC.
Just a thought...
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- KVRAF
- 8731 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
And I had a very quick check on the Soundcraft site...they seem to have a small Folio with onboard FX too (I think it was a powered mixer, not a line one, but can't remember properly...there were hundreeds of mixers in their line up). Some kind of LexiconFX - although don't get excited, I would imagine it's something like the s/w one in Sonar (or whichever host it is). I doubt very much it's got full-blown Lexicon reverbs on a cheap unit. Looks like they discontinued alot of the smaller Folios (shame...they were good quality for a good price). But personally i have no problem buying 2nd hand if it's in good nick...you get more for your money, especially with a mixer.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 535 posts since 15 Jul, 2003 from costa rica / oregon
Thanks Kritikon.
I've never heard of that brand. And even though the post says 'torn between two mixers", i'm actually torn between a bunch of mixers;
This looks nice even though the levels are knobs and not sliders:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG82CX
And way above my price range, but very tempting is this (even though i already have a firewire soundcard):
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDONRV10
So yeah, just shopping around. It ain't easy, but it's fun.
I've never heard of that brand. And even though the post says 'torn between two mixers", i'm actually torn between a bunch of mixers;
This looks nice even though the levels are knobs and not sliders:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG82CX
And way above my price range, but very tempting is this (even though i already have a firewire soundcard):
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDONRV10
So yeah, just shopping around. It ain't easy, but it's fun.
paz por esos mundos