Reacomp

[SongMonkey]

Yikes. Class is apparently not your strong suit, Kingston. I purchased your plug, and I like it, but this puerile tit-for-tat is not helping, and only makes you look like an idiot. Not that Pipeline has been a paragon of grace.

Both of you. I've seen you behave decently. Behave well, even. Why not take a breath, settle on what the topics are, and check the adolescent posturing at the door?

Can the attack curves of Reacomp and an LA2A come close? Where they differ, is it audible? How does Reacomp's lookahead change the equation? Can "character" be defined in this context? If so, can it be programmed? Are the release curves similar? What are the specific feature of the software -- if any -- that set it apart from other software compressors?

There are real topics. There's a gigantic number of them, in fact.

Interested?

Discuss them, for frack's sake.

I can watch monkeys hitting each other with sticks every night on the evening news.


Cheers to you both.

[jens]

Well certainly, you must admit, the only hard and concrete fact brought up in this thread, by Kingston, specifically "Mj comp can do everything reacomp can" has been shown to be false.

that's actually incorrect - there was other stuff as well where he was proven wrong:

Why dont you tell me where I got it wrong smartass

walk the road of attack and release shapes (and their program dependency) and study the transfer curves in detail. Take in account a least two main forms of release program dependencies, and how that might affect peak and RMS ratios, which also happen to have a bearing on the transfer curves.

Then you will eventually run to the brick wall of very fast attack speed vs. distortion vs. rectification ripple in various forms of feedback topologies.

Let's not even get into the nearly uncharted territory of vari-mu digital emulations, which you so casually blanketed under "tube compression".

Then along comes capacitor/resistor networks in attack and release shaping with several standard forms of "auto" modes with serial or parallel topologies.

"fun"

understand any of the above concepts and the pretense of replicating much of it without actually programming your own plugin stops there and then.

couple of smatass dickheads that can do nothing but talk shit. Why dont you show me whats up

some of us smartass dickheads also have our feet pretty firmly on the ground.

Firstly, the compression amplifier in the mc77 comes before the attack/release setting, and they are not fed back, thus they have no bearing on the actual compression gradient/transfer function. That's a fixed value on a switched voltage divider of 4, 8, 16, etc. In a feed back amplifier this wouldn't be the case. So walk the road to your nearest library.

The brick wall we'll eventually run into with very fast speed (speed and audio frequencies gimme a break this ain't a microwave), and distortion are another matter in the actual attack/release controls, but mostly I'm really concerned with why you think ripple affects the detector. This is disconcerting, as firstly, the detector runs unity buffers between stages, and secondly the unit is very well regulated against AC ripple superimposed on the non-rectified DC portion of the power supply. Ripple can't be greater than 5mV in this guy. Plus it's only 30VDC.

So let's peel ourselves off the brick wall we've hit at 20hz - 20khz and walk down the road of vari-mu. This is not esoteric or black art engineering, it's a very simple and basic inverted twin to sharp cut off transfer functions. All vari-mu is is a nice, smooth gradient in the transfer function that doesn't hit maximum dissipation in 1VAV (ok 10VAC) of input, or external circuitry controlling said function. Not desirable everywhere, and really not a feature of the mv77. It is a feature of an LA2A, and the Manley Vari-Mu limiter, and a ton of others.

Lastly, filter "networks". Well this unit hasn't really got anything I'd refer to as a network, like a Pultec, but it has some basic 1/2piRC hpf/lpf filters. It's not an equalizer though it does feature a side chain input. And before you worry about ripple in RC filters, don't bother as they've got plenty of it and that's usually gone by the time it comes out the goesoutta of an active device, like a 2n5088 or a triode.

Rob

Firstly, the compression amplifier in the mc77 comes before the attack/release setting, and they are not fed back, thus they have no bearing on the actual compression gradient/transfer function. That's a fixed value on a switched voltage divider of 4, 8, 16, etc. In a feed back amplifier this wouldn't be the case.

I didn't say it was. but should've been clear I was talking about his other attempts as well, some of which have rather elaborate program dependency topologies.

Lastly, filter "networks". Well this unit hasn't really got anything I'd refer to as a network

that's a concept I picked up when trying to understand how the env. shapes are done most of the time, and serial and parallel formations (ie. networks) are often combined to achieve desired effect.

the post you dissected was a general collection of areas of interest when trying to emulate compression characteristics (of compressors pipeline audio "emulated" earlier on this thread, some of them vari-mu), and not a description of how the 1176 works. I can't think of a single compressor that would exhibit all the characteristics listed there, but it's certainly a pointer on how futile it is to attempt such with the Reacomp in question here.

Reacomp DOES do all the things we're talking about. Fast attack/release, variable transfer function from sharp to smooth (knee), sidechain, auto-release, auto-makeup, hpf lpf, rms size, ratio from 1.0:1 to inf:1, preview filter... it's a digital compressor and it has enough strengths to emulate many types of compression.

It's a great tool for education purposes as well. For instance, http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/093/6/6SK7.pdf the datasheet for a GE 6SK7/12SK7 remote cut-off tube, scroll down to the average transfer charactoristics and calculate the db value of one of the curves. Then enter that into the knee area of reacomp.

Here's a great site full of transistor and tube engineering manuals and textbooks out of print: http://www.pmillett.com/technical_books_online.htm

Have fun!

Rob

[jens]

Can the attack curves of Reacomp and an LA2A come close? Where they differ, is it audible? How does Reacomp's lookahead change the equation? Can "character" be defined in this context? If so, can it be programmed? Are the release curves similar? What are the specific feature of the software -- if any -- that set it apart from other software compressors?

There are real topics. There's a gigantic number of them, in fact.

Interested?

Discuss them, for frack's sake.

Word!

[koolkeys]

Yet one thing remains. Have any FACTS actually been discussed? This is a great topic, and something that many people probably could learn a lot from. Yet, I haven't seen any proof one way or another. Some people CLAIM that facts back them up, but they have failed to show any, or give any examples. What kind of defense is "You are WRONG" and "Evidence?" or whatever(picking on Pipeline a bit here) when there is nothing to support YOUR side being shown? Saying somebody is wrong and proving it are two different things. And until somebody actually shows something, does it really matter?

Well certainly, you must admit, the only hard and concrete fact brought up in this thread, by Kingston, specifically "Mj comp can do everything reacomp can" has been shown to be false.

But really what is to prove?

We were having a nice, mostly thread about reacomp, when Kingston came in, unprovoked attacking ME, personally, not the arguments set forth, just straight out saying I dont know what Im talking about.

I don't know that I have to *prove* anything. I would rather just go back to discussing how things like RMS size and detector frequencies affect a compressors behaviour, which is what we were doing before Kingston's personal attacks

Well, I have no idea any more about what is trying to be proved. It's turned into just proving the other is wrong, but without proving that anyone is RIGHT. It's like most presidential elections. It's a smear campaign. Instead of focusing on what the candidate can do, they focus on what the other does wrong.

So instead of just throwing insults back and forth(with arguably NO facts included whatsoever), can't we just start with the basics, create some comparisons, and actually make the conversation interesting? Personally, I'd like to see you Pipeline, do your best to recreate the Vari-Mu or one of your compressors, in ReaComp, then run identical tracks through both the original and the plugin. Then I'd like to know what you did to recreate it. Maybe it will work, maybe not.

And I don't ask for this to try and prove you can do it. But I want to learn. I have ReaComp installed, and would like to know how to get the best results from it. I want to learn. I've had my share of schooling and experience with gear. Heck, I work every day in the industry, although at this time it's confined to the radio industry, with studios now and then. But I don't know the deeper subjects the way that some of you do, as I've not been doing it as long as some of you.

Kingston also has his own information database of the mind that would be interesting to pick through. But this conversation hasn't exactly been a good place to do so. I don't even think you two started off talking about the same thing. You both spoke of separate parts of the information, from what I gathered.

I would dare say that there are very few actual facts that can be revealed to "prove" either side of the argument. But there ARE facts on how the inner workings of compressors are done. Besides, like I said before, nobody has actually defended themselves with facts. They keep just telling us that the other is wrong. But without reason as to why.

So where can we start? Maybe a simple comparison? Maybe some good presets to work along with you guys? I don't know, but anything is better for learning then "I'm right, you're wrong, and I don't have to prove it".

Brent

[Pipelineaudio]

Can the attack curves of Reacomp and an LA2A come close? Where they differ, is it audible? How does Reacomp's lookahead change the equation? Can "character" be defined in this context? If so, can it be programmed? Are the release curves similar? What are the specific feature of the software -- if any -- that set it apart from other software compressors?

There are real topics. There's a gigantic number of them, in fact.

Interested?

Discuss them, for frack's sake.

I can watch monkeys hitting each other with sticks every night on the evening news.


Cheers to you both.

These are cool topics. Im a little hesistant to answer if Im going to be attacked for bad behaviour. I really don't see me being an asshole here, yet some god of moral equivalancy has apparently, and consistently thru this thread painted a big equal sign between me and Kingston

Can I talk about attack times without it being construed as an equal attack on Kingston?

[Kingston]

Even Bmanic got fed up with your behaviour recently and critcized you openly for it and he obviously is much more polite and patient than me and also he knows you personally.

and for that reason, what goes between us isn't up to you to judge. we're a rather civilised bunch in the real world, and actually *enjoy* debating about these things. Yes, things do tend to get heated up because the subject is not merely a scientific one. It's also an art and a craft, and awfully personal as such.

a thread often is basically dead as soon as you appear in it.

pointed out by KVR's most prominent drive-by-whiner (TM by another good friend of mine). a true thread scavenger.

reflection jens, reflection.

As for why pipelineaudio's posts make more sense to you than mine? It's likely due to similar IQ levels with you two. (not a jab, but an observation)




[edit]

You quite clearly didn't understand the dialog between me and johnnypig. What you did was a fine display of selective reading, and hence failing logic.

[Marduchk]

wow and kingston earns the dick title yet again

[jens]

As for why pipelineaudio's posts make more sense to you than mine? It's likely due to similar IQ levels with you two. (not a jab, but an observation)

Now I've got to dig up that thread I started to ask some questions where you promply appeared with your arrogant nosense and claimed some stuff, while saying I could read more about this in some UAD-articles, which I prompty did, only to find out that the claims you made were clearly wrong - you then sneaked out in your usual way, without apologizing - and I was really polite to you (out of mercy ) even though you got on my nerves enormously...

[koolkeys]

By the way Pipeline, you are ugly.

[Kingston]

scavenger jens, a dead thread scavenger - a local necronomicon for his own benefit.

I mean, what are you actually doing in this thread? other than scavenging and taking shots at me that is?

applies to Marduck, too.

like two illogical versions of whyterabbyt, with no agenda that would at least amuse.

[jens]

scavenger jens, a dead thread scavenger - a local necronomicon for his own benefit.

I mean, what are you actually doing in this thread? other than scavenging and taking shots at me that is?

applies to Marduck, too.

well, in the thread I'm talking about I had just about the position Pipeline showed here in this thread and you tried to kill it with your bollocks.

it is very related to this thread here:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0


I was wrong b.t.w. - it was Bmanic who gave the links, not you - my sincerest apologies for this.

[Pipelineaudio]

By the way Pipeline, you are ugly.

YES

but I contend this octopus was UGLIER

[Kingston]

you tried to kill it with your bollocks.

what the...?

but that discussion actually makes sense! nobody was taking shots either way. you even had valid questions! there was nice amounts of brainstorming, revealing articles. I know you hold a grudge, but what you do is just ridiculous selective reading, but perhaps it's merely incomprehension of the topic at hand.

[Marduchk]

scavenger jens, a dead thread scavenger - a local necronomicon for his own benefit.

I mean, what are you actually doing in this thread? other than scavenging and taking shots at me that is?

applies to Marduck, too.

like two illogical versions of whyterabbyt, with no agenda that would at least amuse.

its hard having the most people in thread be against you isnt it

[koolkeys]

By the way Pipeline, you are ugly.

YES

but I contend this octopus was UGLIER

Remind me not to become uglier then you. I don't want my fate to be the same as the octopus.