u-he

Yasha · Post by **Yasha** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:49 pm

I'm not sure I understand how volume modulation works in Zebra 2 (and Podolski and Triple Cheese). I'm using an AKAI EWI4000s Electric Wind Instrument as a midi controller, and in most cases am interested in using this for wind or bowed sounds. So I want to replace the main ADSR volume envelope in patches with a volume envelope defined by my breath, using the CC values that the wind sensor generates.

Where I run into problems is in the Voice Mix section. Here's an example: Let's say that in channel 1, the Vol is 50 and the source is ENV1. I would think that I could lower the Vol to 0, change the source to Gate, and then change the Mod to 50 with Breath Pressure as the modulation source. My expectation would be that modulation would add to the value being modulated, so that depending on Breath Pressure, the Volume would would vary from 0 (with Breath Pressure = 0) to 50 (with Breath Pressure = 127). It doesn't seem to work that way. The Volume values in Voice Mix currently seem to act as limits, allowing only negative modulation, so with Vol = 0 I can not make a sound with any amount of modulation.

There are other places to modulate the volume (such as within the oscillators) but the Voice Mix section seems to be the most logical place to do that. I've tried using the ModMatrix to modulate Volumes of 0 with a CC, but this seems to work somewhat randomly. (One time I tried this, I modulated a Voice Mix Vol of 0 with Breath Control. No matter what the modulation amount was, from 0 to 100, I produced sounds of seemingly equal volume.)

I have a temporary fix right now. Since the EWI by default sends out the same breath information using multiple CCs, I use Plogue Bidule to filter out Breath Pressure, invert it, and then include it back into the midi stream. This way, I can use the inverted Breath Pressure to negatively modify the volume in the Voice Mix and elsewhere use Aftertouch to modulate filters or whatever.

Is this the way volume is supposed to working, as a limit that cannot be modulated upwards? The same thing happens in the VCA sections of Triple Cheese and Podolski. For some reason though, Zebralette works the way I expect -- you can modulate a zero Vol in the VCA section with a positive modulation value and actually produce a sound.

This has been tested on PPC Macs, using both Plogue Bidule and Numerology as hosts.

-- James Cunningham

beej · Post by **beej** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:08 am

I'm not sure of your specific examples offhand (ie without checking), but you could also try using an amp envelope in the usual way, with a fast attack, decay, zero sustain level, and a fast release, with the breath controller modulating the sustain level - give that a try and see if it works any better.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:30 am

James,

The VCA modulation in Zebralette is actually the Vol Modulation of Zebra's oscillator section.

The voice model in my synths require an envelope (or gate) to control the voice volume/vca, while the modulation is tricky due to its scaling nature rather than additive.

But for your purpose you can modulate *any* other volume parameter, i.e. osc/noise/fmo directly, just like in Zebralette.

Cheers,

Urs

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:31 am

Btw., you can put a working Zebralette patch as .h2p in Zebra's presets folder, open it in Zebra and see how it works there...

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:03 pm

Though you cannot modulate volume on the voice mix (as you discovered) you can do it in the mod matrix. The same control will act as you expect there...

groundhum · Post by **groundhum** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:14 pm

Or modulate the sustain level of the last envelope(s) in the chain. (I'm using a WX11, and may post some patches if I ever get around to being done tweaking them...

)

groumpf · Post by **groumpf** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:33 pm

groundhum wrote:Or modulate the sustain level of the last envelope(s) in the chain. (I'm using a WX11, and may post some patches if I ever get around to being done tweaking them... )

I also have a WX11 and tried some patches with Filter modulation with Breath but I'm a little disappointed by a "step" effect on the filter. It's like the synth looses some CC values and the result is not smooth.
I have a Matrix1000 and don't have the same sounding step effect so I suspect the Zebra.

It could be also a problem with Live which delivers CC in a different way than in direct MIDI.

Also, I tried to modulate with breath :
the sustain level => the Env makes a "clic" due to the 0 attack
the OSC volume => same "step" effect as filter in low CC value

Actually it seems that very low CC values are resulting in too high step values. With Osc volume modulation I cannot starts from 0 level, I always hear an attack in the sound even if OSC volume is 0.

groumpf · Post by **groumpf** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:22 pm

The modwheel on the filter seems to have the same problem : steps, no smooth transitions.
Actually I'm wondering if all MIDI modulations are doing the same unsmooth sound.
I tried with a LFO and the sound is much better so is there a problem with MIDI CC in general ?

You can hear a sample http://dqueffeulou.free.fr/audio/ZebraSawMW.mp3

Howard · Post by **Howard** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:10 pm

groumpf wrote:The modwheel on the filter seems to have the same problem : steps, no smooth transitions.Actually I'm wondering if all MIDI modulations are doing the same unsmooth sound. I tried with a LFO and the sound is much better so is there a problem with MIDI CC in general?You can hear a sample http://dqueffeulou.free.fr/audio/ZebraSawMW.mp3

Wierd. MIDI controller to Cutoff is absolutely smooth here. Tried with MW then BC2 through VL7.

groumpf · Post by **groumpf** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:38 pm

I have also an old Logic 6.3.1 and tried to compare Zebra2 and the build-in ES1 synth.
The result is that a saw modulated by the MW is smooth in ES1 and not smooth at all in Zebra whatever the filter used (normal or XMF).
So it's not Live fault and not my controller keyboard fault.

What is very strange is that when I'm changing the cutoff with the mouse the sound is perfect but with the MW, it is bad.

groumpf · Post by **groumpf** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:09 pm

Urs, what do you think about my last posts ?

Since Zebra's goal is to replace oldies you might be interested by the modulation problem that I don't have with the Matrix1000.

I can record other samples with a patch you provide me...

beej · Post by **beej** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:22 pm

I think Urs is still recovering from the Messe - give him a chance to get some sleep, and I'm sure he'll be right on the case...

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:39 am

Hi,

There might be a quick solution soon... I'll have a global preference for modulator smoothing...

But as beej said, Messe was very exhausting and I'm in the process of recovering & responding to old mails...

I can clearly see however that the next months will be dedicated to *improvements* rather than additions or new stuff (except for MFM of course).

Oh... and Digidesign kind of occupied our booth until I surrendered and promised to bring my stuff to RTAS... this will happen as well...

Urs

djsubject · Post by **djsubject** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:45 am

Urs wrote: Oh... and Digidesign kind of occupied our booth until I surrendered and promised to bring my stuff to RTAS... this will happen as well...

thats defiantly something to boast about!!!!

i hope you got a free pro tools rig for testing??

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:58 am

djsubject wrote:i hope you got a free pro tools rig for testing??

Yes I get a full blown Pro Tools HD system for free

Pause

Not

u-he

KVR Audio

Volume modulation and wind controllers