How to control 2 volumes at same time?

[ksiragusa]

Hi
Let's say you are triggering two sources at one time. So slot number two is set to receive from midi channel one. Everything works as expected except the volume CC7 only changes the first source's fader.
Anyone know a work around?

Cheers

[philosorhymes]

Could you explain further please? What channel is the first source on? What is the source, is it just some sound or sample? from the same plugin or a different one to whats in slot two?

[ksiragusa]

Ok, say you have slot (channel) one and two loaded up with lets say Kontakt and B4 (it doesn't matter what the actually VI's are) and you set both to receive from channel 1. In the system you let the CC messages go through to the mixer faders. At this point when you hit a note on your controller you hear both VI's play at once. When you move the volume controller on your master controller, slot one's mixer fader will move up and down, however slot two which is also set to receive from midi channel one does not move.
Any clues?

[thesoundsmith]

Out of curiosity, why are you controlling the mixer fader rather than the VI volume? If both plugs will respond to cc7, I believe it would work (though I don't do it that way, so I can't say for sure...)

[okiikahuna]

This is a problem I have been struggling with as well. I like to set up multiple splits and layers across my keyboard, using its internal sounds, various modules and Recptor sounds. I want the overall volume of all of them to be controlled by a single volume pedal without disturbing the mix levels of the various parts relative to each other.

Unlike every other module in my rack, Receptor does not make this easy to achieve. Almost every module on the market uses Midi CC#7 (Volume) to set the relative mixer volumes of the various parts in a combi/multi, or whatever they call it, so you can use CC#11 (Expression) to control overall volume without disturbing the mixer settings.

On Receptor things are not that simple: Individual Receptor mixer channels respond only to a fixed midi channel rather than the channel to which they are assigned, and they do not respond to Midi CC#11. Some VST's will allow you to specify a midi CC number to control volume, but many won't. Worse, some have CC#11 hardwired to something like tuning, Oscilator 2 pitch, etc.

Obviously, using CC#7 to control overall volume won't work. If, for example, you have Receptor channels 1 and 2 set to respond on midi channel 1 for a split or layered live set-up, CC# 7 on midi channel 1 controls the mixer volume slider on channel 1, but not on channel 2. Making the mixer channels respond to assignable midi channels would't help much unless they also responded to CC11, since otherwise a CC7 message would override all the relative mixer settings.

Until Muse adds a lot more midi processing options to address this issue, my solution is as follows: Stay away from CC#7 to control overall volume, set your controller to send CC#11 instead. Don't use any plug ins that have CC#11 preset to anything weird (ie: Minimogue, Imposcar) And use something like a Midi Solutions midi mapper to route CC#11 on any channel to CC#14 on midi channel 16 to control the output volume.

K.

[TechEverlasting]

I'm mainly a theater musician who at times designs keyboard rigs for use in musical theater, and I've been considering buying a Receptor to see if this is a viable replacement for the aging Kurzweil K2600s many theaters use. It's very easy to create complex splits and layers in the Kurzweil's Setup mode, and controllers can easily be assigned and remapped. The fact that Receptor can't receive continuous controllers on multiple mixer channels set to the same MIDI channel blows my mind. This means any splits or layers have to be created in the controlling keyboard to be useable in live performance. It just about makes the thing useless for my application.

[okiikahuna]

Muse is not entirely at fault for this: The individual VSTs all receive Midi CCs on whatever channel they are set to. Its just the mixer's CC numbers that are permanently assigned to their respective midi channels. But, because Receptor is running third party VST's with little standardization and which are not necessarily designed for live use, what the VSTs do with those CCs is often problematic. Many permanently assign midi CCs to non-standard stuff, like CC11 to tuning rather than Expression. If you ran nothing but VST's that allowed you to set your own CC assignments, (ie: Kontakt, Minimonsta, etc.) you could set up anything you like. In my example of controlling overall volume above, you'd just set them all to respond to midi CC#11 to control volume, and everything will work just fine, as in any other module. The problem arises when you want to use VSTs that don't allow this kind of flexibility.

K.

[TechEverlasting]

It's a good point that different VSTs are going to handle MIDI CCs differently. In order for the Receptor to really fulfill its promise of being able to create something like Korg Combis or Kurzweil Setups using different VSTs simultaneously there will have to be some sort of simple MIDI mapping functionality built into the Receptor's Multis. Think how powerful it would be if any incoming MIDI controller on any channel could be sent to any other MIDI controller on any other channel. Scaling would be a bonus. (This would solve problems like being unable to use Imposcar because oscillator tuning is hardwired to CC 11. Nothing having to do with MIDI should be hardwired these days.) I'd also like to promote the Kurzweil K2600R's concept of the "local control channel", which is to say that within the rack different channels can be set up with splits, layers, transpositions, volume and pan settings and then controlled (including overall volume) from a single MIDI channel coming from a keyboard. Unfortunately there's little chance of putting external MIDI-mappers or any similar devices in the orchestra pits of the regional theaters I work with. The gear has to be as simple and fool-proof as possible.

Sadly I have the feeling that the software developers at MUSE have to spend all their time trying to get their device to work with the various anti-piracy schemes software manufacturers are using. I can't blame MUSE for making it a priority to get the newest VSTs working as soon as possible, and I can't blame the software companies for trying to keep people from stealing their products.

I don't have a Receptor but am probably going to get one because I have to come with something viable to replace the Kurzweils and this still seems like the best possibility. I've heard Receptors are being used on the "High School Musical" tour and at "Legally Blonde" on Broadway. If I'm making incorrect assumptions or missing important features I appreciate any insight Receptor users can provide.

[okiikahuna]

Yes, the kind of midi processing and scaling you are describing is exactly what I found myself wishing for, and posting in the "Improvements Wishes" topic, within weeks of getting my Receptor. Until there is a lot more midi processing, the Receptor cannot function as a live replacement for a workstation, like your K2600 or my S90ES. I still rely on my ES for the basic sounds and add Receptor for a couple of sounds the ES can't do.

While you are right that having an external midi processor is far from ideal, at least the Midi Solutions box weighs nothing and fits inside the rack right behind the Receptor without taking up additional rack space. Of course, adding an extra space for a more full functioned processor would be better if you don't mind the extra weight.

K.

[thesoundsmith]

I like to set up multiple splits and layers across my keyboard, using its internal sounds, various modules and Recptor sounds. I want the overall volume of all of them to be controlled by a single volume pedal without disturbing the mix levels of the various parts relative to each other.
K.

How about this:

All non-Receptor instruments in your hardware mixer to a buss out.
Buss out into Receptor audio in.
Assign a Receptor channel to the audio feed

Set the Receptor instrument outs to feed the same mixer channel.
Control that mixer channel with cc7, and use cc11 elsewhere.

I believe this will resolve the issue, but have not tried it.

[okiikahuna]

Very interesting idea, Dasher. Unfortunately, it won't work for me because CC7 in my S90ES, which is my controller, also controls the internal mixer. So, I've got to use CC11. Also, I change keyboard setups mid-song by changing midi channels. So, the idea won't work for me, but maybe it will work for others.

For now, my humble little MidiMapper works OK, although its clunky. But, I really hope the Muse guys add some CC mapping with the next operating system update. Then again, I also want more VSTs ported over. So, maybe they just need to give up all that useless, time wasting stuff like sleeping, eating, life outside work, etc.

K.

[thesoundsmith]

Yeah, the phrase is: standards are great. That's why there are so many of them...

THe ongoing debate about VST ports will (hopefully soon) become irrelevant, in V 2.0, you should be able to just install like any PC.

[gregh1]

How about using a sub-host (e.g. SonicBytes Phrazor) in a Receptor slot/channel, then within that sub-host load the two VSTs (and their effect chains).
I've done this, although it seems kind of funny to have the VSTs "hidden" like that. But it exponentially expands the possiblities.

[TechEverlasting]

Greg, that's a fascinating idea.
Did you find this arrangement to be stable?
I was just thinking how I could do anything I wanted if I could just load Brainspawn Forte into the Receptor
and have it host my VSTs. Maybe in V 2.0?

I'll look into Phrazor.

[okiikahuna]

That does sound like an interesting idea. Can you tell us what you had to go through to install Phrazer? I see on their website that it consists of two DLLs and a directory, so presumably you can't just stick a DLL in the installer.

K.