The "Zebra2 plays Virus" challenge

[Howard]

Is it hard to understand that some synths are generally likable, pecentage wise....(snip)... You don't like a Virus synthesizer? Fine, but most people do, and prefer it over your preferred Zebra.

You forgot to factor in how well-known each competing product is at this moment in time.

[Howard]

I think we need non-mp3 examples that were not made with a beta version of the TI.

[cleverr1]

Is it hard to understand that some synths are generally likable, pecentage wise....(snip)... You don't like a Virus synthesizer? Fine, but most people do, and prefer it over your preferred Zebra.

You forgot to factor in how well-known each competing product is at this moment in time.

This goes beyond musicians and producers. The character sounds (over?) used in particular genres of music give a certain authenticity to the overall sound as perceived by the listener. It's a sort of cultural resonance that can outweigh many other factors. The people best placed to introduce new ideas about how each genre should sound are those most established in the field. If you're an unknown producer trying to break in to any area of music then the sad fact is that you're more likely to have success by using sounds and techniques that are common to many other contemporary producers. Right now the character of the Virus is a key element in certain styles.

[Rowan Slattery]

This goes beyond musicians and producers. The character sounds (over?) used in particular genres of music give a certain authenticity to the overall sound as perceived by the listener. It's a sort of cultural resonance that can outweigh many other factors. The people best placed to introduce new ideas about how each genre should sound are those most established in the field. If you're an unknown producer trying to break in to any area of music then the sad fact is that you're more likely to have success by using sounds and techniques that are common to many other contemporary producers. Right now the character of the Virus is a key element in certain styles.

I could not disagree more.

[cleverr1]

I could not disagree more.

Would you care to elaborate?

[OffTopic]

Maybe it has a compressor running over it?
Other than that... I think we need non-mp3 examples that were not made with a beta version of the TI. I would like to hear if the occasionally audible aliasing, clicks and stepping parameters are mp3-accidents or, uhm, features.
(...) Or maybe the resonance doesn't go high enough in the Virus version.

Urs

Apart from many other things (powerful sound, high quality hw-finish, excellent filters, integration capabilities etc.) the Polar TI also simply is just a beautiful & inspirational instrument.

The Virus bashing sometimes reminds me of Life of Brian:

"Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public health...what have the Romans ever done for us?"--(John Cleese) to others in the People's Front of Judea (not to be confused with the Judean People's Front)

[Urs]

cleverr1, if that was the truth, the genre of "music for American movies and German TV series" is going to be dominated by the Zebra sound.

I've booted my Virus A after a couple of years for the first time. It seems to me like this can't be what everybody is talking about. What's the difference between the A and the C except for number of oscillators, "Moog Filter", more multitimbral delays/chorus and number of voices?

Aha, found it:

http://www.accessmusic.de/comparisonchart.php4

The filters havn't changed much except for the so-called "Moog filter" that I have yet to hear. Other than that, an extra oscillator. That's all that happened sound-wise from A to C. I guess the whole filter saturation etc. is all the same?

Urs

[Urs]

The Virus bashing sometimes reminds me of Life of Brian:

See, I agree that the Virus is a great sounding instrument. I just think that it is pretty limited in its capabilities compared to modern softsynths.

As far as I can see, you started bashing Zebra (and other plugins) first. And again, you come up with claims about mystical properties of the Virus sound that you say can't be reproduced by plugins. I'm highly offended that you want me/us to prove against your claims. Usually in any lawful state and by all ethical means, those who accuse must prove and deliver evidence. Not the other way round.

Nevertheless, I would love to prove Zebra's capability to meet whatever specs you ask. If only I knew what you mean.

So again. Bring on a .wav of a sound that exhibits the "depth, breadth, punch" that you can't find in plugin-based softsynths.

[fgimian]

Urs, I think your XMF filter is awesome and might indeed be aggressive enough to compete with something like a Virus.

However, why does it ring at full cutoff so so much with high resonance ? I must admit that this makes the filter quite harsh sounding.

I love the way the Virus filter opens up to a rich clean sparkly sound at full cutoff. Actually ... Synth1's filter reminds me of this

Fots

[Urs]

However, why does it ring at full cutoff so so much with high resonance ? I must admit that this makes the filter quite harsh sounding.

Actually, this is going to be optional in one of the next revs... the current solution is "no fake resonance damping but still not too much aliasing please" which I think is pretty cool for FilterFM. The next rev will have a button for "okay, gimme that fake resonance damping" - for those who need that. It has to be noted though that the resonance in the XMF can be cranked up way higher than for instance in a Moog. Try keeping it in reasonable areas for the pleasing sounds you're after, and use 96kHz just like the Virus...

Software can be updated... operating systems for maxed out dsp chips... don't know...

[Howard]

The Virus bashing sometimes reminds me of...

Some of us (me included) claim that Zebra2 can beat the Virus in terms of sound quality and flexibility. Then there's the minor claim that it can clone the classic and mythical Virus "character" (i.e. any preset in the Virus C and most of those in the TI) such that you wouldn't ba able to tell which is which. That's not Virus bashing.

BTW: I've been a Virus fan for about 8 years, and I played a certain role in it becoming the cult instrument it is today.

[OffTopic]

No mystical claims here. Look, I have linked to some examples - without answer. For the reproduction/cloning of the character of a sound a mp3 example (>128kbps) should be sufficient. Now you ask for wav. Next time you'll ask for midi. Then you'll want it with the Virus' effects turned off. This just goes on and on.

Nonetheless, I am sorry if my posts might have offended you. Not my intention.

The Virus bashing sometimes reminds me of Life of Brian:

See, I agree that the Virus is a great sounding instrument. I just think that it is pretty limited in its capabilities compared to modern softsynths.

As far as I can see, you started bashing Zebra (and other plugins) first. And again, you come up with claims about mystical properties of the Virus sound that you say can't be reproduced by plugins. I'm highly offended that you want me/us to prove against your claims. Usually in any lawful state and by all ethical means, those who accuse must prove and deliver evidence. Not the other way round.

Nevertheless, I would love to prove Zebra's capability to meet whatever specs you ask. If only I knew what you mean.

So again. Bring on a .wav of a sound that exhibits the "depth, breadth, punch" that you can't find in plugin-based softsynths.

[pepelogu]

Sorry for still going OT but I just spent some time with Z2 to compare with the Poco Virus and my conclusion is this:

Zebra sounds good! Damn good even... I could certainly see myself using it if I had it. But it's no Virus killer by any means I think. Very few, if any, of the presets made me think "Wow, this sounds almost like the Virus". But many presets were great, especially the Howard Scarr bank.

Trying to compare the two is completely futile. Of course the Zebra could perhaps just about equal one single sound of the Virus and vice versa but what does that prove? Good programming skills maybe...

I would never sell my Virus for a Zebra, but I would like both!

[fgimian]

However, why does it ring at full cutoff so so much with high resonance ? I must admit that this makes the filter quite harsh sounding.

Actually, this is going to be optional in one of the next revs... the current solution is "no fake resonance damping but still not too much aliasing please" which I think is pretty cool for FilterFM. The next rev will have a button for "okay, gimme that fake resonance damping" - for those who need that. It has to be noted though that the resonance in the XMF can be cranked up way higher than for instance in a Moog. Try keeping it in reasonable areas for the pleasing sounds you're after, and use 96kHz just like the Virus...

Software can be updated... operating systems for maxed out dsp chips... don't know...

Looking forward to checking out the next version Keep up the great work as always.

Cheers
Fots

[Urs]

No mystical claims here.

Well, you actually said that Zebra lacks "depth, breadth, punch". And you said "VSTs just aren't in the same league". For me these claims souind pretty mystical (for a lack of a better word from a non-native English speaker).

Look, I have linked to some examples - without answer. For the reproduction/cloning of the character of a sound a mp3 example (>128kbps) should be sufficient. Now you ask for wav. Next time you'll ask for midi. Then you'll want it with the Virus' effects turned off. This just goes on and on.

Sure, the Virus' effects afaik are pretty standard. Zebra's chorus for instance is way more subtle and doesn't muddy up the mix.

I ask for .wav because the links you gave (demos from Access website, right?) were mp3s obviously made with a prototype or something. I could hear pops, clicks and glitches. If for instance Howard came up with an example where Z2 sounds better, I just want to take a way the possibility to blame it on mp3 or the state of the TI's operating system.

I don't need Midi. I just need a single, dry sound that can not be recreated with a plugin because of its depth, breadth and punch.

FWIW the same test with a certain *analogue* synthesizer came out to leave 15 out of 16 people unsure about which is which. I can dig out the links if it's absolutely needed. I don't see why this should be any different with any virtual analogue synthesizer.