Beta D - select target when no clip selected?

[semiquaver]

Is it possible to select a target in the part property panel before recording a part? I've found that if I focus a vsti in a rack that I can monitor through that vsti and then record parts that have that vsti as a target. But it would seem intuitive to be able to select a target from the part property panel before recording as well. Or am I misunderstanding?

also: is there a way to focus a plug other than using the contextual menu ? thanks

[muzycian]

Is it possible to select a target in the part property panel before recording a part? I've found that if I focus a vsti in a rack that I can monitor through that vsti and then record parts that have that vsti as a target. But it would seem intuitive to be able to select a target from the part property panel before recording as well. Or am I misunderstanding?

I understand your "feeling".

But the Part Property Panel needs a part before it can set a Target.

Anyway, i'll think on this more.

also: is there a way to focus a plug other than using the contextual menu ? thanks

-> just leftclick on the rack plug slot => focus that plug
-> select a part => focus its target

[semiquaver]

thanks Jo - of course!

[pljones]

One of the quibbles S-o-S had with LUNA was that you had to enter a Part before you could start recording, which they called counter-intuitive, IIRC. Hitting record should do just that, record. If you're hearing a MIDI plugin, you should be recording the MIDI input hitting that plugin. If you're hearing audio through a rack/whatever, you should be recording that audio. Once you stop recording, all the parts get laid out for you, one per (new) track, targeting the appropriate destination.

(MU.LAB wants to be able to record multiple MIDI and audio channels, eventually, remember .)

Oh, and recordings should "appear" at wherever the play position was when recording started, of course. (Punch in/out recording can come later.)

Maybe not for 1.0...

[muzycian]

One of the quibbles S-o-S had with LUNA was that you had to enter a Part before you could start recording, which they called counter-intuitive, IIRC.

But it's not true.

You can just hit record whenever you want.

Maybe i'm missing a point?

Hitting record should do just that, record. If you're hearing a MIDI plugin, you should be recording the MIDI input hitting that plugin. If you're hearing audio through a rack/whatever, you should be recording that audio. Once you stop recording, all the parts get laid out for you, one per (new) track, targeting the appropriate destination.

(MU.LAB wants to be able to record multiple MIDI and audio channels, eventually, remember .)

Multi-channel recording is for later.

I think everything should grow in balance.

Oh, and recordings should "appear" at wherever the play position was when recording started, of course. (Punch in/out recording can come later.)

Maybe not for 1.0...

Punched recording is already in there.

It's one of the options when you record something while a part is selected.

[semiquaver]

You can just hit record whenever you want.

I think the problem is with the significance given to the part properties panel in the GUI. I assumed (as the SOS folks must have) that selecting a VSTI target in the panel was necessary before recording MIDI. But I wasn't allowed to select until a part had been created and selected. So I was creating empty parts in order to select their targets in order to record.

Of course the way that Mulab works is more elegant than this - just focusing any plug sets it as the target.

So two thoughts: either make it so the target selector in the parts property panel gives focus to any plug you select from the menu whether any parts are selected or not...

or (more radical)

you could get rid of the parts property panel altogether and change a clips target via right-click...

[muzycian]

You can just hit record whenever you want.

I think the problem is with the significance given to the part properties panel in the GUI. I assumed (as the SOS folks must have) that selecting a VSTI target in the panel was necessary before recording MIDI. But I wasn't allowed to select until a part had been created and selected. So I was creating empty parts in order to select their targets in order to record.

Of course the way that Mulab works is more elegant than this - just focusing any plug sets it as the target.

So two thoughts: either make it so the target selector in the parts property panel gives focus to any plug you select from the menu whether any parts are selected or not...

or (more radical)

you could get rid of the parts property panel altogether and change a clips target via right-click...

I have been thinking of solution 1 too. Sounds like a quite good balanced workaround which doesn't break any concept principles. It's just about adding some "smoothing" code.

I assume solution 2 won't be popular as most users want to easily see the details of a part, i.e. its target, its audiofile/sequence, ...

[pljones]

It's possible the version of LUNA S-o-S were using needed slightly more of a push to get going (e.g. focusing the rack/plugin might not have been automatic, as I've just discovered it is now -- I'd got into the habit of "right-click focus"... I haven't found punch in/out yet... maybe I should look!! )

How about treating the Player and Sequence parts of the Part Property Panel independently. Consider them both just "Current Player" and "Current Sequence". Selecting a Part sets them both, as currently, and changing them with a Part selected updates the Part accordingly, as currently.

In addition, with no Part selected, allow:

1) selecting a Player.
The player selected is focussed and recording works as current. I still think "Add new..." would be handy here: add the player to the MPA connected to the first Audio Out. (We've already got the idea in another thread of "Select all Parts with this Player", so the menu should have this on, too.)

2) selecting a Sequence.
It would let me rename and delete Sequences without affecting any Parts. How about an additional menu option: "Select (or list?) all Parts for Sequence". And how about "Audition", which plays the sequence through the current player (on Ch1?), ignoring any Part?
Note: Just because a Sequence is selected here doesn't mean it plays when the transport is running -- it's not attached to the timeline: that's what Parts are for.

[muzycian]

It's possible the version of LUNA S-o-S were using needed slightly more of a push to get going (e.g. focusing the rack/plugin might not have been automatic, as I've just discovered it is now -- I'd got into the habit of "right-click focus"...

Yes, i think you're right. The version SoS was testing differed (a lot) from where we're now.

I haven't found punch in/out yet... maybe I should look!! )

Record some events while a part is selected + stop recording => one of the options is "Punch". This will overwrite the events in the part that were in the recorded time zone, so to say.

How about treating the Player and Sequence parts of the Part Property Panel independently. Consider them both just "Current Player" and "Current Sequence". Selecting a Part sets them both, as currently, and changing them with a Part selected updates the Part accordingly, as currently.

In addition, with no Part selected, allow:

1) selecting a Player.
The player selected is focussed and recording works as current. I still think "Add new..." would be handy here: add the player to the MPA connected to the first Audio Out. (We've already got the idea in another thread of "Select all Parts with this Player", so the menu should have this on, too.)

Not sure about adding a new plug in the MPA because that makes the initial experience more difficult as then the MPA is "needed" to understand the whole concept.

While i want the MPA to be a pure "extra" on top of a basic, simple and easy sequencer-host.

So IF it would be allowed to add a new target from the Part Property Panel, then it should be inserted in one of the Racks... But then i think it's just the most straightforward to add it in the Rack itself.

2) selecting a Sequence.
It would let me rename and delete Sequences without affecting any Parts. How about an additional menu option: "Select (or list?) all Parts for Sequence". And how about "Audition", which plays the sequence through the current player (on Ch1?), ignoring any Part?
Note: Just because a Sequence is selected here doesn't mean it plays when the transport is running -- it's not attached to the timeline: that's what Parts are for.

I understand your view, and it's technically very nice.

But also here i'm a bit afraid that such functionality would make the application more difficult to understand...

I already have a little doubt about allowing to choose the focussed target from the Part Property Panel while no part is selected, it's already "exceptional" behaviour. (and exceptions make things more difficult)

But i'm implementing it because we all seem to have an intuitive need for that. And it seems to add easiness and transparancy at first sight.

Lets evaluate in beta E.

[pljones]

Record some events while a part is selected + stop recording => one of the options is "Punch". This will overwrite the events in the part that were in the recorded time zone, so to say.

Mmmm, I was looking for this work flow:
1) Select a sequence
2) Drag the "loop zone" on the timebar to highlight the overpunch area (or similar)
3) Set the play point (before the overpunch area...)
4) Hit record, play notes, stop recording - only the "loop zone" gets replaced.
Otherwise I have to have two people operating things -- one to play the keyboard and one to manage MU.LAB, hitting Record and Stop at the right points (i.e. a tape op to do the punch in/out ).

Not sure about adding a new plug in the MPA because that makes the initial experience more difficult as then the MPA is "needed" to understand the whole concept.

Fair enough - add a new rack containing the plugin, with the rack connected to the Part?

<trim>...sequence...</trim>
But also here i'm a bit afraid that such functionality would make the application more difficult to understand...

Unless someone went looking for it, it wouldn't be apparent. So it shouldn't be more difficult than what's currently there (as it doesn't change what's currently there). If you select "nothing", the Target and Sequence get set to nothing. If you then go clicking on them, with no Part selected, I'd have thought the obvious thing would be that they'd work just the same, except not affect any part...

[muzycian]

Record some events while a part is selected + stop recording => one of the options is "Punch". This will overwrite the events in the part that were in the recorded time zone, so to say.

Mmmm, I was looking for this work flow:
1) Select a sequence
2) Drag the "loop zone" on the timebar to highlight the overpunch area (or similar)
3) Set the play point (before the overpunch area...)
4) Hit record, play notes, stop recording - only the "loop zone" gets replaced.
Otherwise I have to have two people operating things -- one to play the keyboard and one to manage MU.LAB, hitting Record and Stop at the right points (i.e. a tape op to do the punch in/out ).

The Loop zone is for looping.

You can perfectly loop a certain section, and suddenly hit record, play some notes and choose to punch them into an existing sequence part

If you want a more specific punch point, you can just position the play position at the punch in point and hit record.

Then just play as long as you want to punch, i.e. the longer you record, the longer the punch area. So it's kind of automatic.

Agreed?

Not sure about adding a new plug in the MPA because that makes the initial experience more difficult as then the MPA is "needed" to understand the whole concept.

Fair enough - add a new rack containing the plugin, with the rack connected to the Part?

Will think about this.

So this would need a "Create new plug in new rack" menu option, right?

(which doesn't sound like an 'easy' option to me)

<trim>...sequence...</trim>
But also here i'm a bit afraid that such functionality would make the application more difficult to understand...

Unless someone went looking for it, it wouldn't be apparent. So it shouldn't be more difficult than what's currently there (as it doesn't change what's currently there). If you select "nothing", the Target and Sequence get set to nothing.

At this point, i disagree.

I think it's good that the last focussed target keeps being the focussed target even if you unselect all parts.

This is also handy when creating new parts as they default to the focussed target.

If you then go clicking on them, with no Part selected, I'd have thought the obvious thing would be that they'd work just the same, except not affect any part...

And then popup the Audio File pool or the Sequence Pool?
(or any other media pools that could be added)

Anyway, at this point, i have a conservative feeling about this.

Doesn't seem to be the right place to add such functionality, imho.

Maybe it's also because i'm into finalizing MU.LAB towards PreRelease and Release, and don't want to experiment with conceptual changes at this point.

Last but not least: i don't trash your suggestions (thanks!), will think about them again over longer time.

[semiquaver]

If you want a more specific punch point, you can just position the play position at the punch in point and hit record.

Then just play as long as you want to punch, i.e. the longer you record, the longer the punch area. So it's kind of automatic.

The problem that tpjones mentioned is the time it takes between pressing record and returning to your instrument to play. The goal of "punch in" recording, for the musician working alone, is to automate the pressing of record, so that the player can be at their instrument playing along before the punch-in point.

There may be a more Mulab-like way to do this than using the loop region for the punch points (as Live, Tracktion, and Reaper do) but it is something to think about.

[DaveL60]

The goal of "punch in" recording, for the musician working alone, is to automate the pressing of record, so that the player can be at their instrument playing along before the punch-in point.

I'm 100% in agreement with this statement (emphasis added). I've found it very hard to get a smooth punch-in fix of a mostly OK part without being able to start playing early enough so that the lead-in to what I want to over-right is matched to the already-recorded material.

DaveL

[muzycian]

Maybe i'm still missing the point but:

Imagine a part of 32 measures full of music.

Now i want to punch in some notes in measures 15 and 16.

I can start recording from measure 1 if i want (or from measure 10, it's just free), let the music play, and just play what i want to punch in measures 15 and 16.

Then stop recording, and choose "Punch".

Now MU.LAB will only punch/overwrite the time section which i recorded, i.e. starting at the (snapped) time of the first recorded event and ending at the (snapped) time of the last recorded event.

That's why i say MU.LAB's Punch is almost automatic, as you're just punching in what you're recording. No need to indicated anything beforehand.

OK, i can imagine some specific situations where you want the punch time area to be larger then the actually recorded time area, so that more is overwritten than you have re-recorded.

But in such case, please just edit the sequence and delete any superfluous notes.

Agreed, in this case we have an extra action.

But we always spare the typical needed action to indicate a punch area.

So that still makes a win, imho.

Right?

[DaveL60]

Jo: I understand your scenario, but

1) It sounds MIDI focused (maybe just what you wrote) -- do things work the same way with audio? For me, at least, punch-in has much more to do with audio parts than MIDI sequences.

2) Not to sound hidebound by tradition, but this is distinctly a different interpretation of "punch-in" from how that term is used in most other contexts, so for some users that might be confusing.

I'd have to play with it to be sure, but your description still doesn't sound, so me, like it fits well with the "start playing before the punch-in point to get into the flow" way of doing punch-ins, particularly for audio.

DaveL