About Parts and Sequences

[pljones]

Yep, spot on -- that's the issue I had: when I split the part, the sequence start point didn't get set where I expected.

[muzycian]

OK I am stupid, you are smart. I go shut up now.

Sorry to stress you out with this debate.

No, not at all!!

It's a tough topic, and there ARE arguments for both 'strategies'.

For now, things will stay as they are now regarding this aspect.

But i'm still thinking on it more...

[muzycian]

Yep, spot on -- that's the issue I had: when I split the part, the sequence start point didn't get set where I expected.

I agree that at least this aspect should be made more clear!

[muzycian]

Well, after a lot of thinking and re-thinking, i've made this MU.LAB test version:

Osx: http://www.mutools.com/mulab/mulab-test ... 23-osx.zip
Win: http://www.mutools.com/mulab/mulab-test ... 23-win.zip

The zip file only contains a newer MU.LAB application file. Just put that one in your current mulab folder (eventually backing up the original application file), and it should work fine.

In this test version, the Sequence loop is now defined by the Part, not anymore by the Sequence.

Because this makes MU.LAB more consequent and thus more easy to learn.

This might be a small detail for many users, but it was a tough conceptual topic. (cfr this thread!)

There is a small penalty to this new strategy, but we're convinced (after in-depth discussion and thinking) that the benefit is much greater than the loss.

It definitely resolves the "split part => where is the offset locator" confusion.

Hope this works OK!

Thanks again for the in-depth discussion here!

[muzycian]

Some more info on this new MU.LAB Test version:

1)

First of all, some issues have already been fixed, so if you already installed this test version, please re-download and install again.

The download links are the same but the application file has been updated:

Osx: http://www.mutools.com/mulab/mulab-test ... 23-osx.zip
Win: http://www.mutools.com/mulab/mulab-test ... 23-win.zip

When you do Help menu -> About MU.LAB, it should say "Test 080124".

2)

Some more info on the Part/Sequence Start, Loop and End:

Until version 1.1:

Each Sequence had a Start and Loop parameter which defined which region of the sequence was looped. This was per sequence.

So all parts using the same sequence had the same loop!

There was also a hidden part parameter called 'Offset' which was used when splitting parts.
This was the offset into the sequence loop because of the split.

But this parameter was not explicitly viewed/edited anywhere so this caused some confusion.

From version 1.2 on:

Now everything is explicitly defined by the Part.

Each part has a Start, Loop and End parameter which defines where to Start, Loop and End in the sequence.

When splitting parts, the Start parameter is set according to the split point, of course taking into account the original Start, Loop and End.

On top of this, and just to make the new system more complete, each sequence does have a Default Start, Loop and End, which can be defined via a right-click on one of the locator flags in the Sequence Editor.

This Default Start, Loop and End don't actually DO anything, they're just there as a hint for MU.LAB in case you draw a new part and select an existing sequence.

Then MU.LAB uses these default values to set the actual Start, Loop and End for the new part.

Last but not least:

Because of these changes, also the sequence editor data (ie memorizing the editor's location and zoom level etc...) is moved from sequence level to part level.

So now each part memorizes its own editing settings.

[pljones]

Jo, thanks for putting this up. I've grabbed the second version.

First, I proved I could still create the "problem" by forgetting to copy over the new .exe

Then I tried the new version and got a red screen of death when right-clicking the time bar after having split a part - I was about to set the loop point from the context menu.

<edit2>
By the way -- the Start marker was where I expected it to be now. Good! The loop marker was at the start of the sequence, however, which was a bit odd.
</edit2>

<edit>
Oh, and should "Enter unlimited user key" be disabled if you've already got one?
</edit>

[muzycian]

Then I tried the new version and got a red screen of death when right-clicking the time bar after having split a part - I was about to set the loop point from the context menu.

Yes, can repeat it, it's a bug.

Will be fixed asap!

Thanks!

By the way -- the Start marker was where I expected it to be now. Good! The loop marker was at the start of the sequence, however, which was a bit odd.

In which situation?

Can you give a step by step where the start marker is not right?

Oh, and should "Enter unlimited user key" be disabled if you've already got one?

Ok, done.

[muzycian]

I've updated the test version, fixing the above reported crash issue.

Same download links:

Osx: http://www.mutools.com/mulab/mulab-test ... 23-osx.zip
Win: http://www.mutools.com/mulab/mulab-test ... 23-win.zip

When you do Help menu -> About MU.LAB, it should say "Test 080125".

[pljones]

By the way -- the Start marker was where I expected it to be now. Good! The loop marker was at the start of the sequence, however, which was a bit odd.

In which situation?
Can you give a step by step where the start marker is not right?

1. Create a 12 Sequence part
2. Split the part at bar 7 beat 1
3. Open the later part
4. The Start flag is at bar 7
5. The Loop flag is at bar 1 (which I think is odd)

Oh, and should "Enter unlimited user key" be disabled if you've already got one?

Ok, done.

First time I ran this, it didn't recognise my UserKeyString and said "Free Test ...". Second time was okay.

--

Okay, in my test, this isn't quite working. I can set the loop point to bar 25 but when I close the sequence editor, I see no sign of the looping having taken effect - no repeat lines.

<edit>
Okay, got it.
I was Start and Loop at the same point. End defines the end of the sequence (which then loops to fill the part, from the loop point).
</edit>

[pljones]

Mmm, maybe when you Split, you need to set Loop and End somehow...

I had 135 bar part.

First I split at bar 7. Start is set to bar 7 but Loop is bar 1. I think Loop should default to Start.

Then I moved Loop to bar 7 by hand and End to bar 25 to get the looping I wanted.

I then split this latter part at bar 115.

This was weird...

The start, loop and end points from the second sequence were replicated, so it didn't start at bar 115 as I'd expected. I had to manually move the Start and End to where I wanted them (bar 115 and the end of the sequence). I put Loop up at end as I didn't want any looping.
<edit>Just found "remove loop". Why no "remove end", for "infinite" sequences?</edit>

It would also be nice to be able to type in the positions of the start, loop and end markers (maybe typing S, L or E in the sequence editor could let you type the positions in?).

Apart from the above minor inconvenience, it's working really well!

[deleted]

DELETED

[muzycian]

1. Create a 12 Sequence part
2. Split the part at bar 7 beat 1
3. Open the later part
4. The Start flag is at bar 7
5. The Loop flag is at bar 1 (which I think is odd)

This perfectly normal and logical.

If the original sequence has a Loop locator at 1.1.0000, then the splitted part should have the same.

In fact the reason is simpel: Splitting a part should not alter the sequence loop.

Only the Start point in the splitted part will be updated according to the split point.

Oh, and should "Enter unlimited user key" be disabled if you've already got one?

Ok, done.

First time I ran this, it didn't recognise my UserKeyString and said "Free Test ...". Second time was okay.

Can't repeat that here...

[muzycian]

Mmm, maybe when you Split, you need to set Loop and End somehow...

I had 135 bar part.

First I split at bar 7. Start is set to bar 7 but Loop is bar 1. I think Loop should default to Start.

Then I moved Loop to bar 7 by hand and End to bar 25 to get the looping I wanted.

I then split this latter part at bar 115.

This was weird...

The start, loop and end points from the second sequence were replicated, so it didn't start at bar 115 as I'd expected. I had to manually move the Start and End to where I wanted them (bar 115 and the end of the sequence). I put Loop up at end as I didn't want any looping.

I'm sorry but i don't understand your description.

I simulated what you described here above, and everything was working as expected.

Note that just splitting a sequence part should not make any difference in what your hear!!

So the sequence loop should stay the same!

The very loop itself is defined by the Loop and End locators.

The Start locator defines where to start to play in the sequence.

Just found "remove loop". Why no "remove end", for "infinite" sequences?

OK

[muzycian]

Jo, do you consider this version as "productive" or is ts just a study?

This still is a test version.

But i'm convinced that the new Part /Sequence Loop system is a nice improvement

And so the real "productive" update (version 1.2) will normally come monday or tuesday.

[pljones]

I simulated what you described here above, and everything was working as expected.

Weird... Maybe it's because I set this all up in the old version rather than from scratch in the test version? I'll give it another go, starting from importing the .mid file.