So Frustrated - fast sound switching?

[iopwert]

I am a keyboard player in a wedding band, and as a result my biggest need, aside from versatility in sounds, is the ability to quickly switch from one complex sound setup to another. I do have this in my current hardware synth setup.

After getting really excited about the receptor based on the marketing, and even talking to them about what I would like to do, I thought it was the perfect next step for me and purchased one.

It turns out that I really cant do anything that I need to do with the Receptor. While the snapshots are great for fast sound switching, I would have to load every channel with a VST (if memory would actually allow that) and then I'd have only those 16 voices as my "palette" of sounds. I probably use about 50 different sounds at a gig, and they may have different ranges, tunings, assigned keyboards (I use two).

Ive gone through every option, and emailed with support, but I just cant get this working. It really doesn't serve for a true live performance tool the way someone like me uses it.

The problem is, many of the VST hosts for the PC allow for this type of automation... I guess you assume that when Muse says it can be a replacement for a PC VST host, you assume it actually has the features of a PC-based VST host. This is just not the case.

How sad and frustrated I am right now - I've wasted SO much money. Is anyone using the receptor for playing live where a song may be called out at any given moment that requires 4 different sounds, which may be totally different than anything you've used in the gig so far, and needs to be playable immediately? This has to be a common need - I just dont understand how this could be called a serious tool for anyone that needs to switch between more than five sounds.

Any help would be appreciated...

[chielio]

Hi there,

For fast switching there are snapshots, limited with 16 plugins in a multi you can load at the same time (of course you can create complex layers and splits within 1 plugin such as kontakt/sonic synth etc.).

Snapshot require a different way of thinking compared to workstation-multi's. E.g.
ch 1 piano (ivory or piano teq) effects + effect sends
ch 2 b4 effects + effect sends (changing patches with program changes separate
ch 3 kontakt with a few sounds spread over separate midi channels
In each snapshot you can bypass all plugins and change the levels .. so if you can load everything you need at once you're there! Be warned not to overload the unit .. keep enough recources and ram free that in no case the cpu maxes out.

I can understand in a wedding band you need fast changing complex multi setups .. my solution to that is a second receptor loading the patches for the next song on the list. Or just use a plain old workstation from korg/roland/yamaha.

I can understand your frustration, I was also dissapointed and expected more .. over time I learned to take advantage of the strong points the receptor has.

In your scenario you could consider two things
-Using snapshots multi's and learn the limitations, you can e.g. send program changes to certain plugins within a snapshot (works great with B4 for instance).
-Stick with a workstation and use the receptor only for certain sounds again making one overal snapshot bank (which will take you some amount of time to set up properly).

I agree that 1 receptor with a master keyboard won't do the job in a wedding band .. I hope you can work this out! To end this positive, I'm still convinced that the receptor (with it's limitations) is the most stable way to use softsynths live, plus it sounds great!

[dudegruvy]

I play in a classic rock band and share your frustrations. I had hoped receptor would compltely repalce all my patches, but quickly learned I had traded quantity of sounds in my old setup for quality. However, I have found a work -around: Receptor does all my basic piano, organ, horn, strings, and some synth parts. I use my old keyboard for everything else as a line in channel in a snapshot. A lot of my old patches still sound great and I'm happy to use them. When you get down to it, wedding/ classic rock mostly requires some basic instruments that can be nicely configured to run from the receptor in snapshots. Having Ivory, lounge lizard, and B4 for live prformance beats the hell out of any keyboard I could have bought for over $2,000. I shopped the Nord, Motif, etc, and the receptor makes a perfect compliment to make up for the weaknesses in my old setup. Will it ever completely replace it? No, I doubt that, but it's great for the basics, and my old keyboard is still chugging away with the esoteric unusual patches that I occasionally need.
The added bonus is that I now have a lifeboat to at least play something if one keyboard goes down.

[UltraJv]

Anything with a hard drive in it will suffer from this. No matter whether Receptor, PC/Laptop or Mac. Using sample libraries makes the issue far worse. You cant beat hardware ROM workstations in that respect.

[forw]

yes, always had the same problem.......exactly that..

I thought energy xt would do the trick.
but it didn't. it was not possible to change QUICKLY between two
settings. 1.5- 2.5 seconds to switch inbetween a song is just too
much.
what I learned: I hate computers in live-context.(I don't know receptor).
bought myself a the clavia wave (actually not enough octaves in weddingband-
context) and use my old ensoniq in addition... works ok so far!

[dudegruvy]

Wow forw- 1.5 seconds is too much to wait? I used to take that long to reach over and change pathes on my old ROM keyboards. And Ensoniq? 20 years ago I had their first 8 bit sampler, the Mirage - It took forever to load patches by floppy disk, yet I was still able to make it all work with the band. Many songs start without the keyboard, so you had to plan when to load patches. I own the receptor, gig with it often, and it's a great supplement to my setup that does most of the heavy lifting with speed and sounds that you cannot get in any ROM based keyboard. When I went shopping for a new rig I was amazed at how there had been almost no change in the quality of ROM based keyboards over the 8 years since I bought my Yamaha S80. If you have about $2,000 to spend on a sound module, all the really great sounds are now coming out of vst's, plus you get the flexibility to build your own keyboard library of just the patches you need. I've had sound people with years of experience tell me that my Ivory paino from the receptor is the best piano they've ever heard through their system, and I agree. I'm completely satisfied with the receptor now that I understand it's not a one box solution, but does do many wonderful things.

[iopwert]

Thanks for the responses, all -- maybe that's the key, looking at Receptor as a supplemental piece of hardware instead of "the" hardware. The problem is, my hope was to reduce the complexity and weight in my rig, not add to it - I currently use two keyboard workstations and I was hoping to move to two light controllers with a PC or Receptor. I totally get the advantages of using the VST's and the sound flexibility you get, I guess its just a matter of me accepting that getting the amazing sound of Ivory (totally agree there) is worth bringing the receptor along as an extra piece of equipment ... as opposed to just upgrading my Triton Extreme to a Kurzweil or something.

And dudegruvy, yes, absolutely 1.5 seconds is too much, believe it or not! If you consider that anyone like me is handling not just the standard keyboard parts (pianos, epianos, organs), but all horns, strings, and every synth part, then add in that most bands like mine run songs continuously, especially during dance sets - you can see how it's essential that you be ready for the downbeat of next song immediately after the final sound of the last. I usually feel lucky when I can take a breather for a song that starts with just guitar/bass/drums

[Briggity]

Using patch changes to switch singles with any synth that doesn't load samples works quite fast, especially with Z-Load enabled. For example we use Absynth, Pro-53, FM7, Crystal, and MiniMonsta - they all switch acceptably fast. Unfortunately anything with samples will take longer, but that's not a Receptor limitation. Theoretically, Bank mode in Kontakt should allow fast switching of patches but I haven't tested it on the Receptor - might be worth exploring, provided all your samples will fit into the Receptor's 2 GB of memory at once.

If you combine Snapshots with patch changes for singles, plus different MIDI channels for you basic sampled instruments, you should be able to get the results you need.

Brian

[forw]

When I went shopping for a new rig I was amazed at how there had been almost no change in the quality of ROM based keyboards over the 8 years since I bought my Yamaha S80.

yep,so true

[iopwert]

If you combine Snapshots with patch changes for singles, plus different MIDI channels for you basic sampled instruments, you should be able to get the results you need.

Brian

I totally agree, this would help - but is this possible? From what I understand, program change messages can either be intercepted by the Receptor, which would change the current snapshot, OR be forwarded to the VSTs themselves. But not both.

[okiikahuna]

By default, the Receptor responds to program changes on all midi channels. If you set the Receptor to respond to program changes on only a single midi channel, you then have the option of sending patch changes on all other midi channels directly to the source plug-in. To do this, on the "Setup" page, under "Receptor Program Changes" select the midi channel number in the "use channel" dialog box, then check "Route all other channels to source plug-in"

This means that if you want to set up a number of different keyboard setups using different programs on various source plug-ins, you will have to send two or more program changes on a different midi channels for each program change: one to call up the snapshot and a different one to change the midi channel on the source plug-in(s).

In a gig situation, you would ideally like all program changes sent with a single button push. Having the ability to change individual plug-in programs on the fly would also be nice.

The S90ES can do the former using its Master mode, but it is limited to four separate program change messages at a time. Also, while its simple to set up a suitable multi to change the snapshot and up to three plug-in programs beforehand, changing a program on only one of the plug ins on the fly is not very easy. I have also set up something on my Nord G2X to that allows me to send individual program changes on the fly. This is more flexible but requires separate button pushes for each individual program change.

By the way, I have never learned to use bank mode in Kontakt. I have always just loaded various instruments, set each to respond on a separate midi channel, and then set the Receptor's mixer to send midi to the different midi channels in each program. Does Bank mode have advantages over this?

K

[dudegruvy]

[quote="iopwert"]Thanks for the responses, all -- maybe that's the key, looking at Receptor as a supplemental piece of hardware instead of "the" hardware. The problem is, my hope was to reduce the complexity and weight in my rig, not add to it - I currently use two keyboard workstations and I was hoping to move to two light controllers with a PC or Receptor. [/quote]


I agree- was hoping to make things simpler, but that's not yet possible with today's technology. I was initially looking to purchase a second rom based keyboard to act as backup in case my ancient S80 bit the dust at a gig. (I also use a Roland A-37 keyboard controller to get at organ/ synth patches in the receptor and S-80) If you look at the receptor as the new main source of your patches, and keep your old keyboard as backup, you get security and lots of great sounds. I can live with that.
Sure it's one more box to carry and wire up, but I think it's a reasonable trade-off.

[MyMusic42]

DUDEGRUVY:

I ran into the same issue as you. I am now moving away from Receptor to an Open Labs Neko

After a few months of exploring all the options of the Receptor, I realized that for me and the way i play live, that Receptor could not be THE single piece of hardware for me. I didn't want to go the supplemental route (Receptor plus something else). So after a lot of research, I've found that the Neko will work better for me, since I can have far more than 16 patches. I'll take a hit when I turn it on and have to wait and load all my plugins/patches, but once they are loaded I can just use them as needed during live performance.

I'm not bad mouthing the Receptor. Clearly it works for a lot of people. But for me, and my specific workflow, it wouldn't cut it.

Good luck with your endeavors.

[The Good Doctor]

I am late to the discussion but wanted to share from my experiences with the Receptor in live situations. I, too, was hoping the Receptor would be my one box solution (with a master keyboard) but early on I realized that this was going to be an elusive goal.

Initially I just made a bank of patches and used Zload for quicker changes. Of course, loading samples was out of the question...the Steinway in Colossus takes almost 15 seconds! So when I was going to be able to use an acoustic piano I would load the sample from a bank patch. When I needed to changes patches I used a Roland SRX triple strike soundfont! This seemed silly to me since I am using a Kurzweil PC2x as my master keyboard and it has a better piano patch than the Roland. I began to combine the Kurzweil with the Receptor. Thankfully, the Kurzweil is a superior MIDI controller.

Finally made the shift to "Snapshots" after the release of 1.6 (Now running Rev C and 1.7), and find that this creates a better situation since you can load samples and plugs beforehand and quickly change patches. I am dragged that this only allows you to select the factory patches for the plug-ins.
I need to be able to select from my edited program banks. I hear that this is coming in a futer release and I am waiting patiently. Meanwhile, my Kurzweil plugs up the sonic gaps. I am thinking about upgrading to the PC3x to get even more realtime controllers because I think I will always need a synth even if the Receptor solves several of the issues at hand. I work in a continuous music situation and when the Receptor is slow to load or crashes the leader/contractor throws a fit. Once a gig he asks me why I just don't go out and buy a Triton.


Sorry for the long post,

The Good Doctor

[Rick@MuseResearch]

Here's how I will do program changes using Komplete 5 as an example. This requires you can send a program change in Omni mode, (all 16 midi channels).

1. Open the Receptor SETUP MIDI pane, select "Ignore program changes and select Multis".
2. Select Use Channel 16
3. Select "Route all other channels to source plugin".
4. Create a Receptor Snapshot bank.
5. On Receptor mixer CH1 load Kontakt 3, create a Kontakt Multi not a Receptor Multi with 3 patches. Now save this as a Receptor Kontakt SOURCE patch.
6. Load B4 II on Receptor mixer CH2 set this to MIDI CH1.
7. Load Acoustic Piano on Receptor mixer CH3 set this to MIDI CH1.
8. For Snapshot patches 1 through 3 Kontakt 3 will play, mute B4 II and bypass Acoustic Piano. Here's an important note: A plugin that is muted will still see a program change and a bypassed plugin will not see a program change. Also Akoustik Piano does not respond to program changes so this is useful for this example.
9. For Snapshot 4 mute Kontakt 3, un-mute B4 II and leave Akoustik piano bypassed.
10. For Snapshot 5 leave Kontakt 3 muted, mute B4 II and un-bypass Akoustick Piano.
11. Send Program changes 1 through 5 as an Omni channel.

Result:
(A) Program changes 1 through 3 sound pre loaded Kontakt 3 samples, zero load time.
(B) Program change 4 sounds B4 II patch 4.
(C) Program Change 5 sounds just Akoustic Piano.
(D) All this happens immediately.
(E) All plugins play on MIDI ch1.

Rick