Midi Controller(s) keyboards and the Receptor...

[JohnCrusher]

Hi all,

I want to buy a new midi controller, but i want to know if any of you own already a good midi controller keyboard and how it works together with the Receptor.
I am looking for hammer-action 88 keys midi keyboards.
So far i am looking at:

- Yamaha KX8
- M-audio Keystation Pro 88
- Studiologic VMK188 plus
- CME UF8
- ESI K.ON
- Doepfer LMK4+
- VAX77, Infinite Response

For ppl also interested in 88 key hammer-action controllers i keep updating the list for now.

To bad there is nothing like a "perfect" controller for me. One has very good keys, but less assignable knobs. I haven't tested them yet.
I am curious if these can be used well together with a Receptor. The Yamaha KX8 for example is not USB midi class compliant, wich means you need to install drivers. I know it will work with Receptor with basic midi, but could i use and assign the many knobs then? My guess is no with any of these keyboards, because they all come with midi map editing software for Mac and Windows.

Let me know your experience on this.

#update sept.11 2008; added the ESI K.ON to the list.
#update sept.16 2008; added 2 more to the list

[Acoutistic]

Greetings,

I use this keyboard with Receptor - it works very well. Be sure you try one out before you buy; some of my serious pianist friends don't like the feel of these weighted keys. I like the feel myself. The assignable controls have a reasonably solid feel and the programming is straightforward; there is a slightly klunky but effective software program available from M-Audio (Mac & PC) that can be used to program the assignables, but I haven't bothered much with that. Programmable buttons & rotaries can be easily be programmed to send program#, MSB, LSB all at once (in contrast to the Novation controllers), and this in particular has been a great thing for control of Receptor.

I must say I had kinda looked down my nose at M-Audio gear, but this baby hit a sweet spot for me price-feature wise five years ago and I've been playing it very happily every day ever since.

One caveat - this keyboard weighs about forty pounds, so is not exactly the most portable unit out there.

peace

M

[schubert]

I use a Kenton control freak studio. I use it as a 16 channel midi mixer, it is fully programable and is the dogs bollocks if you ask me. Have a look on the Kenton site.

[dustersa]

Hi.

I am also interested in the KX8. I'm a pro pianist and composer. I also have Eastwest Choirs and I need a good KB with a good feel. One of the things that attract me to this keyboard is that the description says that it has lots of phrases including bass.

Midi bass phrases are lacking and samples are just tooo tedious to go through. I end up spending hours of wasted time going through all those samples just to find one part for base.

Anyway if you already own the KX8 I'd like to hear what you have to say. Unfortunate, I'm not in a position where I can try it out before I order it.

Steve

[demierra]

Hi,

I am using an Oberheim MC-3000. It is not built anymore, but this master keyboard is by far the best I've ever seen:

- 8 assignable midi zones (switchable with an on/off button)
- 8 assignable sliders
- 3 wheels (1 pitch and 2 modulations)
- 8 assignable pedals (on/off or expression)
- 1024 presets (8 banks)
- customisable velocity and aftertouch curves
- 8 Midi OUTs, 2 INs, 2 THRUs (... more than enough to control your whole studio, and even you neighbour's at the same time)
- it is even able to learn SysEx messages and then transmit them

I used an M-Audio Axiom 61 for a few months with the Receptor too, but the keyboard quality is so poor that I went back to my MC-3000. Of course, the possibilities of the Axiom are much more superior than the MC-3000, but for playing live, who really needs so many options?

It is a pity this MC-3000 is not produced anymore. You can find some for sale on Ebay, if you're lucky!
An alternative could be one of the Kurzweil PC series... Lots of features, but a lot more expensive too!

Hope this helps...

Demierra

[Ciey]

Hi

My choice is Doepfer LMK 4+ http://www.doepfer.de/lmk4.htm
I think this is the best weighted keyboard controler.

[johnrule]

The VAX77 is an interesting idea:

http://www.infiniteresponse.com/

JR

[demierra]

The VAX77 is an interesting idea:

http://www.infiniteresponse.com/

JR

Whoooaa! I have always dreamed about such a keyboard, foldable and easy to carry! It looks very interesting, but I think it lacks a few controls on the panel... some knobs or sliders would be welcome, and switches for zones too...

Nevertheless, I think it is a fantastic idea. I thought about that a few years ago, telling my friend that keyboards would be so much easier to carry it they were foldable. He told me I should try to do my own... but I'm not Bob the Builder. Now someone has done it for me! Hopefully some other brands will build their own too...

Demierra

[thesoundsmith]

$2500!!! Great board, but considering the Axiom is a tenth of that price... Plus it has the sliders.The VAX77 will be a great piano controller/bottom keyboard, but I still need my Axiom on top for organ and synth control.

[Tischhupe]

The Yamaha KX8 is a good DAW (Cuabes4.5) controller, but the keyboard action is very light. There are better keyboards like Fatar or Doepfer.

[peterfs]

My ideal controller would be a 76-key Novation Remote SL controller with weighted keys. I know that doesn't fit the criteria but I used to lug an 88-key weighted keyboard to gigs and definitely got tired of the size and weight.

I recommend the Novation Remote as a controller but a mix of that level of immediate control and weighted keys seems like the perfect product which AFAIK has yet to be produced. Maybe it's just for too small a niche (me only?)

- peter

[johnrule]

I looked closely at the features of different controllers and workstations, and I decided that an 88 key graded hammer action with aftertouch was what I wanted. Since there are only a few keyboards like this, I went for what is supposed to be top of the line...the Studiologic Numa. I received mine a little over a week ago, so I did spend some serious time exploring the features before I wrote this.

It is probably the best action as far as GHA (graded hammer action) keybeds go, so it is an excellent piano controller. I am using it to specifically control Pianoteq from Receptor, and it is awesome! The velocity features are certainly impressive (and useful), and that was one of the main reasons I purchased this keyboard. Their "You Play" custom velocity interpolation is actually one of the better features I have seen in a keyboard lately (and it works!). I also tried the Alesis 8HD, but I ran into the "black keys are louder than the white keys" issue, and I am convinced this is an inherent problem with many controller keybeds. The Numa has a permanent solution in my opinion; my ears (and midi monitor) proved to me that they do indeed have this worked out. However, I ran into several problems when trying to use the Numa as a mid controller.

The built in UI (user interface) is fairly intuitive, but there are some quirks. Having to lean to the left every time I needed to select a patch, send a program change, etc. was a pain in the neck...literally. I don't see why it could not be in the center. Some players actually prefer this orientation, so I guess you can't please everyone. I imagine that I can live with this. The main interface is very 'iPod' like in that you have a touch sensitive jog/shuttle wheel, and some NAV buttons...and that's it. The menu structure is pretty deep though, and you can do a lot of things like splits, layers, and all with different controllers for each zone (including different aftertouch controllers). The lack of physical control buttons is both good and bad, and I also think that I can get used to this.

Aesthetics aside, the UI operation itself was somewhat buggy. For example, each time I selected a patch, or entered the edit mode, a torrent of midi information was sent out. This was more than annoying because it repeatedly locked up the host I was running. It wasn't just sending the patch setup information (i.e. program change, volume, etc.), it was also sending reset information for all 16 channels! I did receive an email from Fatar (and from a Studiologic representative) stating that this issue was fixed in a new firmware update. That's nice, but there were several other issues I found that are convincing me this keyboard may be unsuitable as a midi controller.

Finding the control wheel mounted on the side of the controller was not too much of a surprise (it's in all of the pictures), but the usability was. The control wheel itself would skip values and entire ranges of values, rendering it unusable for anything (this may also be addressed in the next firmware update according to Fatar). It was especially unusable for pitch control since there was no center reference. This would not have been such a problem if it was designed to have an acceptable range for pitch control (either 64-128 or 64-0) but it simply sent 0-127 pitch control information. This means that you are left with the daunting task of finding the center pitch by ear after performing a pitch bend. This is unacceptable in a live performance situation (including recording) so I don't see the point in making this the only control with 'PITCH' as an assignable value. Fatar could fix this by providing an offset (polarity is already assignable) so that you could simply bring the wheel all the way back or forward to find 64 (center) again.

The aftertouch on my unit was also an issue in that it would start sending information starting at 40 (on average), which provided very jumpy control that was obvious. In fact, I would say that the most usable range for aftertouch is 0 to 60, so I found this unusable as well. The store where I bought this from (www.midi-store.com) has since agreed to send me a new unit free of charge, so I am very pleased with them! Fatar on the other hand seemed to take the position that it is not their keybed. We'll see. I would appreciate any user feedback on what kind of response (and the manufacturer) they have for aftertouch. You can use MIDIOX (www.midiox.com) to monitor values. Can you get a nice smooth ramp between 0 and 40?

I give the Numa a 7 out of 10. If they fix the issues I discussed, I will give it a 9.5 (minus .5 points for the control wheel on the side, and the pitch issue I mentioned). It is by far one of the best actions I have played, and the looks are certainly different (elegant and unique). It is a little pricey, but it may ultimately be worth it since I seem to be playing more rather than trying to figure out what is wrong with the action.

I invite all Numa owners to take a closer look at the features that I mentioned, and send an email to Fatar if you find what I found.

JR

[johnrule]

Update...

Studiologic (Fatar) has provided several updates for the Numa that address many of the issues that I mentioned in my 'review' above. I also bought a black one as a back up. The wooden keys on the black 'Nero' have a slightly different feel, so you might want to play both before you decide.

JR

[demierra]

I give the Numa a 7 out of 10. If they fix the issues I discussed, I will give it a 9.5 (minus .5 points for the control wheel on the side, and the pitch issue I mentioned). It is by far one of the best actions I have played, and the looks are certainly different (elegant and unique). It is a little pricey, but it may ultimately be worth it since I seem to be playing more rather than trying to figure out what is wrong with the action.

That sounds like a cool controller, but in my opinion, many things are missing on it, like on/off buttons, sliders, a pitchbend wheel, ...
By the way, you didn't mention if it was possible to change bank MSB and LSB values with the Numa... If no, I would say it is a serious gap for a controller.

I may sound a bit repetitive, but the Oberheim MC-3000 (see my previous message...) is one of the best keyboard controler I've ever seen. I have all the features of the Numa, plus many more... You can even draw your own velocity and aftertouch curves and store them !!!

I've never had any problem with it, except the backlight that stopped working a few months ago, after 8 years of good and reliable service. Luckily, the Oberheim support (Viscount, in Italy) had spare ones, so I could replace it with a brand new one.

I don't know about the price of the Numa, but the MC-3000 was available for around 850£ in London. It's a pity they don't build it anymore... Luckily, I found another one second hand on eBay, so I have one at home too (with age, I'm getting lazy, and this thing weighs a ton !!!)

Any other MC-3000 users, or am I the only one on earth owning this?

Demierra

[Throbert]

I would rather have the controllers on the KB sitting on my main KB so that I could keep them closer together. It just makes more sense not to be fiddling around with controls buried up under the upper KB. As for the Main or 88KB my priority is feel and playability. As of this day it's hard to find that and good aftertouch in the same box for my needs. If you are planning to use only the full size board the MC-3000 would be great but, it weighs 47.4 Kg and good luck finding one. Fatar makes manuals Studiologic uses Fatars manuals in there KBs. The Numa, the Numa Nero and the Numa Nano (When ever it shows up) are probably one to look out for but depending on where you are located you might have to buy one just to check it out. I live in Denver, so I would have to road trip it to Sedona or barrow someone's mooney when they weren't looking to go check just the Numa out.
Presently I'm using a Kawai ES3 for my main KB. Kawai has good feel and playability for my taste. It doesn't have aftertouch or controllers and I don't even use the tone module but that does it for me. I would consider one of theirs if they made one in the E series with aftertouch, providing I could get my old one sold, if I only wanted to use an 88er I would get a Kawai MP8.