Rick deleted a post of mine talking about uninstalling RPM packages, logging as root... which is fine as I understand why he did it, particularly since there will always be some among us who will break their Receptor trying something not in the manual. Anyway, this got me thinking.
First, if you break, you pay. It should be quite normal to pay for Muse to fix your Receptor if you break its OS. You wouldn't expect a manufacturer to cover the cost of fixing your mistakes.
So, should you tinker with your Receptor ? Well, it depends on your mileage when it comes to Linux and RedHat in particular, and the depth of your pockets should you have to return the unit to base.
There is no doubt that tinkering as root can be very dangerous as you have no safeguard should something go wrong. You could end up deleting a file, modifying settings... Equally, there is no doubt that it can be a life-saver. I remember the first time I was faced with having to modify something. I had just installed SampleTank 2, and I needed the permissions of the presets folder changed. The standard install package had not set it to write-enable and so I couldn't add any preset when using SampleTank. The solution was to log as root and enter the command chmod with the correct syntax.
The alternative would have been to open a ticket at Plugorama and wait for Muse to create a package to fix the problem. Now, how long would that have taken ? And is it worth taking up Muse's time with such request ? For me, the choice was simple and after 3 minutes, I could work as I wanted to.
Let's take another example. My Receptor originally shipped with a 40Gb drive. Anybody who uses sample banks and sample-based VSTi will know that the size is woefully inadequate. When I first thought about getting a larger drive installed (by Muse), I realised it would cost a fortune compared with the purchase cost of the drive itself, simply because it would entail shipping the Receptor back to Muse from the UK, and paying to get it back (there was no tech support in the UK at the time). After putting a 500Gb myself, I was quite happy at the substantial savings realised. FUrthermore, I now have a factory set 40Gb drive ready to roll should I need to get the OS fixed on the 500Gb.
So, what about open information on how to fix the permissions of a directory, upgrading a hard drive...?
I would say we need this. Let me qualify my answer.
At the end of the day, Receptor is based on Linux. So anyone wanting to learn about root access, disk duplication, package uninstallation and so on can quickly find the information required as any search engine will come up with sites presenting Linux commands in details.
Now, isn't it better to have information relevant to Receptor users as opposed to generic Linux stuff ? I think so, although I do recognize it can perhaps give a false sense of security to users who may not dare proceed if only equiped with generic Linux information (even though the procedures described may be just the same). Since the information is out there, let's have it in a Receptor-friendly layout. We run the risk of some users tripping themselves but I believe it benefits the majority.
Going back to the first paragraph above, I believe that Rick was wrong to delete my post for the reasons explained above. But I'm willing to discuss this, in a friendly manner, as befits the tone of this particular forum, way more civilized than others here.
Thoughts ?
Tinkering with Receptor - discussion
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- KVRian
- 571 posts since 14 Oct, 2004 from UK
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- KVRian
- 1116 posts since 22 Apr, 2005 from Nashville, TN USA
I was a little surprised to see Rick's post about "you could void your warranty if you do this...". I guess I just assumed everyone knew this, but if not it sure needed to be said in this forum a LONG time ago. By that definition, I voided my warranty about a month after I got my Rev B back in Nov 2005! And it pretty much stayed voided for the duration of my ownership (over two years and a couple of upgrades).
I could not have LIVED with the limitation of at least being able to chmod directories like Kermit mentioned, rpm delete packages when thing would not uninstall/reinstall, edit the Registry to remove serial no entries for bad NI installs, etc, as opposed to waiting for a "fixer" program from Muse. I think there were many of us that did Muse's tech support guys a big favor by taking some initiative to learn some of this stuff, rather than bogging them down with these kinds of requests all the time.
What about using RegEdit? Does that also void the warranty.
What about ssh access as root in order to run an exe installer under Wine (I call this "poor man's direct-install"
) ? Does that also void the warranty.
Not to mention Looney's excellent tutorial about mounting the CDRom in order to install the Arturia synths!! That's bound to get you banned from even calling on Muse to help you, LOL
Rick, I think to be fair to all, you folks at Muse need to clearly state in this forum what does and doesn't void the warranty (yeah it's probably in the manual I know), and then let folks decide if it's worth the risk, rather than censoring the flow of good helpful information. Might also be good to state what the hourly rate is to "get someone out of the weeds" once they have dorked up their Receptor by doing something they should not have with root access.
In short, this is a can of worms with a LOT of ambiguity and gray areas.
Let's face it, Receptor is a computer. Sure it's cleverly disguised as a kick-ass musical instrument, but at the heart it is a very viable and hackable computer, and it can be made to do some amazing things by those that are willing to take the risk (and learn a little Linux).
I do think it's a shame that any post (especially from Kermit) that was clearly written to be helpful to the user community would get deleted. So much better to post a disclaimer like Rick did on the other thread rather than something as heavy-handed as censorship.
Alright, just my .02 worth.
I could not have LIVED with the limitation of at least being able to chmod directories like Kermit mentioned, rpm delete packages when thing would not uninstall/reinstall, edit the Registry to remove serial no entries for bad NI installs, etc, as opposed to waiting for a "fixer" program from Muse. I think there were many of us that did Muse's tech support guys a big favor by taking some initiative to learn some of this stuff, rather than bogging them down with these kinds of requests all the time.
What about using RegEdit? Does that also void the warranty.
What about ssh access as root in order to run an exe installer under Wine (I call this "poor man's direct-install"
) ? Does that also void the warranty.Not to mention Looney's excellent tutorial about mounting the CDRom in order to install the Arturia synths!! That's bound to get you banned from even calling on Muse to help you, LOL
Rick, I think to be fair to all, you folks at Muse need to clearly state in this forum what does and doesn't void the warranty (yeah it's probably in the manual I know), and then let folks decide if it's worth the risk, rather than censoring the flow of good helpful information. Might also be good to state what the hourly rate is to "get someone out of the weeds" once they have dorked up their Receptor by doing something they should not have with root access.
In short, this is a can of worms with a LOT of ambiguity and gray areas.
Let's face it, Receptor is a computer. Sure it's cleverly disguised as a kick-ass musical instrument, but at the heart it is a very viable and hackable computer, and it can be made to do some amazing things by those that are willing to take the risk (and learn a little Linux).
I do think it's a shame that any post (especially from Kermit) that was clearly written to be helpful to the user community would get deleted. So much better to post a disclaimer like Rick did on the other thread rather than something as heavy-handed as censorship.
Alright, just my .02 worth.
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- KVRian
- 524 posts since 25 Aug, 2005
I've been through this from both sides, and I can guarantee you this: if you pressure the company (any company, regardless of size or charter-government office to corner grocery) for a definitive policy about a gray area, the policy will ALWAYS be more restrictive. In some cases, a lot more restrictive. And as much as it pains me to agree with ANY corporate decision, in their position I would have to do the same. Without a strict rulebook, it is easier to bend the rules. All a policy does is close loopholes...
Another example of, "be careful what you ask for."
You have some extremely useful knowledge, but warnings to the technowannabes are never enough. Fools will be fools (yes, I will... ) and try something they shouldn't, just because someone else did and was successful. And some of the losers will compound the issue by misplacing the blame. Not your fault, not Muse's fault, but sometimes self-defense is necessary.
Would it be nicer if you could just publish a list of mods and link to a third-party site to actually retrieve the files and docs? Keep Muse and KVR out of it except for the link? I dunno. Just a thought at 1AM...
Another example of, "be careful what you ask for."
You have some extremely useful knowledge, but warnings to the technowannabes are never enough. Fools will be fools (yes, I will...
) and try something they shouldn't, just because someone else did and was successful. And some of the losers will compound the issue by misplacing the blame. Not your fault, not Muse's fault, but sometimes self-defense is necessary.Would it be nicer if you could just publish a list of mods and link to a third-party site to actually retrieve the files and docs? Keep Muse and KVR out of it except for the link? I dunno. Just a thought at 1AM...
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 571 posts since 14 Oct, 2004 from UK
Interesting thoughts, keep them coming!
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- KVRist
- 61 posts since 27 May, 2004 from Amherst, MA USA
As someone who is on the side of unrestricted access, but understands the business needs of a manufacturer such as Muse, I think one way this gap can be bridged would be with the implementation of a power users "group", that could then (in some not yet defined manner) work with Muse to give them feedback with ideas, tips, and debugging info.
This could be the form of an extended, ongoing Beta group, or something like that. The tricky parts of this could be how to decide who does or does not "qualify" to be a part of this. Obviously, Muse should not be expected to just fix Receptors for anyone who tries anything, and I understand their unwillingness to explicitly encourage people to take their Receptors apart, either physically or virtually, and then expect an automatic restore. So there would have to be a worked-out understanding of what would be appropriate and what would not.
Speaking for myself only, the usefulness of a Muse Receptor is not really fulfilled unless I have the leeway to be able to do the kinds of things that allow for a certain amount of modification and experimentation. I own two Receptors, both acquired used, and both out of warranty. Before designating one of them as a sort of testbed, I cloned the hard drive and put the copy aside as a backup.
I was a Beta tester for 1.7 & Direct Install, and found working with Muse a very positive and professional experience. I think they do serve those users who either want or need a black box device very well. I think they have the potential to also serve those users who either want or need a more flexible and configurable device, given the right arrangement and circumstances. There will always be people in a middle, less defined area as well. They clearly want to learn more about the tools they use, both outside and in, and I don't want to be in the elitist position of saying "I get the keys to the box and you don't." So perhaps what might be called for is a middle category, with the power users as an Alpha test group (most access - most risk), the learner users as a Beta test group (less access - less risk), and the larger body of regular users (no access - no risk).
I leave it up to those more diplomatic or wiser than I to figure out a fair, equitable, and friendly triage process
-MWG
http://www.mwgilbert.com/
http://cdbaby.com/all/mwgilbert
This could be the form of an extended, ongoing Beta group, or something like that. The tricky parts of this could be how to decide who does or does not "qualify" to be a part of this. Obviously, Muse should not be expected to just fix Receptors for anyone who tries anything, and I understand their unwillingness to explicitly encourage people to take their Receptors apart, either physically or virtually, and then expect an automatic restore. So there would have to be a worked-out understanding of what would be appropriate and what would not.
Speaking for myself only, the usefulness of a Muse Receptor is not really fulfilled unless I have the leeway to be able to do the kinds of things that allow for a certain amount of modification and experimentation. I own two Receptors, both acquired used, and both out of warranty. Before designating one of them as a sort of testbed, I cloned the hard drive and put the copy aside as a backup.
I was a Beta tester for 1.7 & Direct Install, and found working with Muse a very positive and professional experience. I think they do serve those users who either want or need a black box device very well. I think they have the potential to also serve those users who either want or need a more flexible and configurable device, given the right arrangement and circumstances. There will always be people in a middle, less defined area as well. They clearly want to learn more about the tools they use, both outside and in, and I don't want to be in the elitist position of saying "I get the keys to the box and you don't." So perhaps what might be called for is a middle category, with the power users as an Alpha test group (most access - most risk), the learner users as a Beta test group (less access - less risk), and the larger body of regular users (no access - no risk).
I leave it up to those more diplomatic or wiser than I to figure out a fair, equitable, and friendly triage process
-MWG
http://www.mwgilbert.com/
http://cdbaby.com/all/mwgilbert
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- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Hi everyone,
I have been holding back on this for a while...especially since I have been asked not to post these things on Muse's forum.
Ben asked me (on a different occasion) if I wished to moderate a power users forum - and I did respond with interest, but I did request that Muse think about the liabilities of this (which apparently they did). They never got back to me. Without going into much details here, there is one other aspect that should be mentioned about this discussion -
Muse does own KVR, and does have the right to set the rules on what is allowed to be discussed in their forums. While KVR appears to be a free haven for discourse, there are still rights that the owner can enforce, including setting rules and (ahem) censorship.
In no way do I condone the censorship of information - however Muse can decide what the rules are for communication, especially where they feel information may jeopardize their customers, or put them and others at risk of liabilities.
All that being said, if KVR is not the correct forum to discuss these things (because they violate some established rules of appropriate discussion), so be it. There are other public forums.
I would think however (seconding Hyber) - that assuming all people are well intentioned, it would behoove Muse to post some ground rules spelled out plainly somewhere on the Muse forum:
1.) Rules of appropriate discussion in Muse Forums (what can and can not be discussed)
2.) Terms of Liability (what can legally happen to you or Muse, should damages be caused by posts violating (publicly prescribed) discussion rules (1)).
3.) Risks of privileged access (including definitions of privileged modification) - What can happen if you screw up various things (Registry, protections, scripts, ...)
4.) Costs associated with repairs. (Re-installs, Diagnostic Hourlies, HW)
One last recommendation for Muse:
Whether or not you have figured this out - Your community is the lifeline to your product. I acknowledge that you have some customers who never look at the forum, and only deal with customer support - but I'm guessing the vast majority of usage problems are answered on this forum. Potential customers also evaluate the health of the community and the public opinions stated on your forum. When you censor (well intentioned, helpful, and information that has not violated any public rules of discourse) from the community, you diminish the capability of your own community. The participants of this community have invested countless hours establishing techniques to install and use many unsupported plugs that Muse hasn't the time or other investments to support. This is part of what is selling your product at this moment. Unfulfilled promises of plugin compatibility are being mitigated by other techniques (some of them are priveleged). Direct Install and (potential synchrosoft) support go some of the way at improving the situation, but not all the way.
Hopefully this is viewed as more 'concrete suggestions' then as a soapbox.
Regards,
Kevin L
I have been holding back on this for a while...especially since I have been asked not to post these things on Muse's forum.
Ben asked me (on a different occasion) if I wished to moderate a power users forum - and I did respond with interest, but I did request that Muse think about the liabilities of this (which apparently they did). They never got back to me. Without going into much details here, there is one other aspect that should be mentioned about this discussion -
Muse does own KVR, and does have the right to set the rules on what is allowed to be discussed in their forums. While KVR appears to be a free haven for discourse, there are still rights that the owner can enforce, including setting rules and (ahem) censorship.
In no way do I condone the censorship of information - however Muse can decide what the rules are for communication, especially where they feel information may jeopardize their customers, or put them and others at risk of liabilities.
All that being said, if KVR is not the correct forum to discuss these things (because they violate some established rules of appropriate discussion), so be it. There are other public forums.
I would think however (seconding Hyber) - that assuming all people are well intentioned, it would behoove Muse to post some ground rules spelled out plainly somewhere on the Muse forum:
1.) Rules of appropriate discussion in Muse Forums (what can and can not be discussed)
2.) Terms of Liability (what can legally happen to you or Muse, should damages be caused by posts violating (publicly prescribed) discussion rules (1)).
3.) Risks of privileged access (including definitions of privileged modification) - What can happen if you screw up various things (Registry, protections, scripts, ...)
4.) Costs associated with repairs. (Re-installs, Diagnostic Hourlies, HW)
One last recommendation for Muse:
Whether or not you have figured this out - Your community is the lifeline to your product. I acknowledge that you have some customers who never look at the forum, and only deal with customer support - but I'm guessing the vast majority of usage problems are answered on this forum. Potential customers also evaluate the health of the community and the public opinions stated on your forum. When you censor (well intentioned, helpful, and information that has not violated any public rules of discourse) from the community, you diminish the capability of your own community. The participants of this community have invested countless hours establishing techniques to install and use many unsupported plugs that Muse hasn't the time or other investments to support. This is part of what is selling your product at this moment. Unfulfilled promises of plugin compatibility are being mitigated by other techniques (some of them are priveleged). Direct Install and (potential synchrosoft) support go some of the way at improving the situation, but not all the way.
Hopefully this is viewed as more 'concrete suggestions' then as a soapbox.
Regards,
Kevin L
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 571 posts since 14 Oct, 2004 from UK
Some more excellent points being made by all.
Originally, I created the group receptorized (now just a repository of files) to discuss all of these things, and we ended up merging with the other group MuseReceptor as there wasn't any point 'dividing' the community (so to speak) between people talking about how they use their Receptor and others talking about how they get under the hood.
However, the Yahoo group is not very active. I guess most of us come to KvR first, particularly since it emcompasses many other things, specially lots of forums dedicated to plugins we have and use on the Receptor.
Kevin is right. If Muse decide we cannot post here the kind of information deemed potentially dangerous by them, we have to respect their wishes and we'll have to do it elsewhere for those of us who like discussing these matters.
I am thinking about creating a website to compile information relevant to the Receptor. Originally, I though oGG's FAQ was going to play that role but it's only half-way there in my opinion. Also, I'm sure lots of users here would give me a hand by sending tips and sharing their experience. Perhaps this is the way forward, together with a sticky here that would say something along the lines "if you're interested in power-user information, go to http://blabla BUT be aware that modifying... will void the warranty, the cost of reinstalling a system will be...", etc.
Kevin was making a good point when he mentioned the fact that lots of potential buyers read forums before committing to a purchase. I know this to be true because as a moderator of the official Korg France forum as well as another well-known forum, I had written a very long review (positive of course) followed by advanced tips on how to change the drive, install Korg Legacy and a few other things. The consequence is that three users told me my articles had been what tipped the balance in favour of them buying a unit. OK, three is not much but it's fairly indicative that what Kevin said is true.
Please do carry on sharing your views. Hopefully we'll find a solution that will satisfy everyone.
Originally, I created the group receptorized (now just a repository of files) to discuss all of these things, and we ended up merging with the other group MuseReceptor as there wasn't any point 'dividing' the community (so to speak) between people talking about how they use their Receptor and others talking about how they get under the hood.
However, the Yahoo group is not very active. I guess most of us come to KvR first, particularly since it emcompasses many other things, specially lots of forums dedicated to plugins we have and use on the Receptor.
Kevin is right. If Muse decide we cannot post here the kind of information deemed potentially dangerous by them, we have to respect their wishes and we'll have to do it elsewhere for those of us who like discussing these matters.
I am thinking about creating a website to compile information relevant to the Receptor. Originally, I though oGG's FAQ was going to play that role but it's only half-way there in my opinion. Also, I'm sure lots of users here would give me a hand by sending tips and sharing their experience. Perhaps this is the way forward, together with a sticky here that would say something along the lines "if you're interested in power-user information, go to http://blabla BUT be aware that modifying... will void the warranty, the cost of reinstalling a system will be...", etc.
Kevin was making a good point when he mentioned the fact that lots of potential buyers read forums before committing to a purchase. I know this to be true because as a moderator of the official Korg France forum as well as another well-known forum, I had written a very long review (positive of course) followed by advanced tips on how to change the drive, install Korg Legacy and a few other things. The consequence is that three users told me my articles had been what tipped the balance in favour of them buying a unit. OK, three is not much but it's fairly indicative that what Kevin said is true.
Please do carry on sharing your views. Hopefully we'll find a solution that will satisfy everyone.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 571 posts since 14 Oct, 2004 from UK
As an after-thought, and I create a different reply as it is related to what sort of information we should post here but not exactly the same topic, another question we need to ask ourselves and Muse is what's the purpose of this forum.
Is it just a place where people come hoping to get an answer to a particular problem, to get official annoucements, to share their experience, to learn about their unit, to talk about improvements...?
If people stop asking questions we cannot respond to due to what is considered dangerous to share, then they might just as well open a ticket at Plugorama. If that's the case, what have we got left here ?
Is it just a place where people come hoping to get an answer to a particular problem, to get official annoucements, to share their experience, to learn about their unit, to talk about improvements...?
If people stop asking questions we cannot respond to due to what is considered dangerous to share, then they might just as well open a ticket at Plugorama. If that's the case, what have we got left here ?
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- KVRist
- 184 posts since 28 Apr, 2004
Hey Kermit,Kermit Jagger wrote:The alternative would have been to open a ticket at Plugorama and wait for Muse to create a package to fix the problem. Now, how long would that have taken ? And is it worth taking up Muse's time with such request ? For me, the choice was simple and after 3 minutes, I could work as I wanted to.
This hit the nail on the head for me. I recently posted about receiving help on getting rid of the DR-008 folder and files (which I don't want), and was told via KVR users, as well as privately via email, that "talking" about hacking the Receptor was not a good idea.
You are 100% correct, I have no desire to waste Muse's valuable time with requesting personalized fixes for this type of thing, because they could instead focusing their time on getting Direct Install working with a multitude of non-NI products, or whatever other "major" issues take precedence for them.
Even though my irritation is something I admit is trivial, it does not help when I get the official "don't fiddle with it" response when I was actually trying to look out for Muse by not wasting their time, and get an answer from a fellow KVRer on fixing my small pet-peeve issue.
Also, I think you are right about most people coming here to KVR for help. I cannot tell you the number of times I have found an answer here WITHOUT having to contact Muse on the phone for support. This forum is an excellent resource and I would urge people to use it thoroughly before calling Tech Support, because you'd be surprised how many answers are here!
On the flip side, Muse has every right to charge a "bench fee" for labor if someone break's their Receptor and can't undo the changes themselves without an official Muse techie fixing it.
Cheers!
projektio
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- KVRist
- 309 posts since 11 Sep, 2005 from Virginia
I just installed Windows XP service Pack 3 on my Receptor and no problems so far. Does that void my warranty?
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. Just kidding guys. I couldn't resist.
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. Just kidding guys. I couldn't resist.
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Rick@MuseResearch Rick@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=18273
- MUSEician
- 350 posts since 23 Mar, 2004
First off I just want to say I think it's great everyone is so active on this forum. I have spoken to many of you in person, all in all it's a fantasic bunch. Users of the forum have saved me countless hours of support. This is great since it allows us to focus more on the business of moving the Receptor forward. The only time I really have an issue is with public posting of low level access. Often I do not discovery until after a Receptor is finally shipped back here for repair that it's been hacked into. This is a loss of time that is very costly in hours, in testing and development, the bench fee would never cover this. As for DR-008 we do have a fixer file which does change the directory permissions as well as many other condtions. As some you may also know we can tunnel into a Receptor remotely and repair problems from here. If it's an issue which requires root access please direct the user to create a support ticket, it would very helpful.
Rick
Muse Research
Muse Research
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- KVRist
- 31 posts since 18 Feb, 2003
Hello all,
I can attest to the effectiveness of a remote session.
I had a Stylus RMX problem that was fixed once with a permissions patch from Muse...unfortunately I messed up the Stylus install after the patch, so I needed root access.
Even though I'm the lone technician of 50 computers at my current job (and I wanted root access to change permissions myself) I'm glad I let Vik and the crew remotely administer my Receptor. (Believe me, I watched everything they did, on my monitor, to see if I could sneak a peek at the password, but TERMINAL didn't display it...)
The remote session was over a Hughesnet satellite Internet so it was SLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!! But they did it! Even with a mouse and keyboard latency in the MILLIONS! Ha, Ha
Anyway, today that Stylus RMX 1.5.1 works GREAT, my Receptor works GREAT, and I'm glad to know that I can't accidentally screw up my Receptor.
Something that worries me, though, is a hard drive crash. Yes, I would like to see an IMAGING command to copy the hard drive to an external one in case of crash (since I have hundreds of hours invested in setting up my Receptor!!). Maybe this could be a backup/recovery button in the interface, and all we would have to do is reauthorize our plugs (if they aren't iLok'd)
But otherwise, an end-user changing settings with root access is no different than "modding" an XBox or TiVo unit...you void a warranty when you do that, too.
Thanks to the Muse Support Team for helping all of us out when needed and, I believe, patience IS the answer when dealing with the wonderful, yet overloaded, developers at Muse!
Smile,
Brad
I can attest to the effectiveness of a remote session.
I had a Stylus RMX problem that was fixed once with a permissions patch from Muse...unfortunately I messed up the Stylus install after the patch, so I needed root access.
Even though I'm the lone technician of 50 computers at my current job (and I wanted root access to change permissions myself) I'm glad I let Vik and the crew remotely administer my Receptor. (Believe me, I watched everything they did, on my monitor, to see if I could sneak a peek at the password, but TERMINAL didn't display it...)
The remote session was over a Hughesnet satellite Internet so it was SLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!! But they did it! Even with a mouse and keyboard latency in the MILLIONS! Ha, Ha
Anyway, today that Stylus RMX 1.5.1 works GREAT, my Receptor works GREAT, and I'm glad to know that I can't accidentally screw up my Receptor.
Something that worries me, though, is a hard drive crash. Yes, I would like to see an IMAGING command to copy the hard drive to an external one in case of crash (since I have hundreds of hours invested in setting up my Receptor!!). Maybe this could be a backup/recovery button in the interface, and all we would have to do is reauthorize our plugs (if they aren't iLok'd)
But otherwise, an end-user changing settings with root access is no different than "modding" an XBox or TiVo unit...you void a warranty when you do that, too.
Thanks to the Muse Support Team for helping all of us out when needed and, I believe, patience IS the answer when dealing with the wonderful, yet overloaded, developers at Muse!
Smile,
Brad
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- KVRist
- 173 posts since 3 Sep, 2007 from CT
Anyone use an AMD ML-44 in a Receptor? The specs say it fits the MOBO and it's a 2.4 chip rather than the 1.8 that comes in a Pro.MaxReverb wrote: The only time I really have an issue is with public posting of low level access.
Not that I want to add to your headaches :>
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- KVRist
- 96 posts since 2 May, 2004 from USA
LOL!richwhite9 wrote:Anyone use an AMD ML-44 in a Receptor? The specs say it fits the MOBO and it's a 2.4 chip rather than the 1.8 that comes in a Pro.MaxReverb wrote: The only time I really have an issue is with public posting of low level access.
Not that I want to add to your headaches :>
myspace.com/bekenone
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Bryan@MuseResearch Bryan@MuseResearch https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9067
- MUSEician
- 618 posts since 18 Sep, 2003 from Silicon Valley
First off, thanks for sharing your opinions on what particular tack we should take on this admittedly touchy subject. If you've met any of us, you'd know that we are not really all that "corporate", we really love to hear from customers and honestly and truly believe that empowering customers is the best thing we can do as a company, and we value an open dialog to share ideas, thoughts, concerns, and the like, especially as they pertain to improving our product. But there are limits.looneytunes wrote:Hi everyone,
I have been holding back on this for a while...especially since I have been asked not to post these things on Muse's forum.
Ben asked me (on a different occasion) if I wished to moderate a power users forum - and I did respond with interest, but I did request that Muse think about the liabilities of this (which apparently they did). They never got back to me. Without going into much details here, there is one other aspect that should be mentioned about this discussion -
Muse does own KVR, and does have the right to set the rules on what is allowed to be discussed in their forums. While KVR appears to be a free haven for discourse, there are still rights that the owner can enforce, including setting rules and (ahem) censorship.
In no way do I condone the censorship of information - however Muse can decide what the rules are for communication, especially where they feel information may jeopardize their customers, or put them and others at risk of liabilities.
All that being said, if KVR is not the correct forum to discuss these things (because they violate some established rules of appropriate discussion), so be it. There are other public forums.
I would think however (seconding Hyber) - that assuming all people are well intentioned, it would behoove Muse to post some ground rules spelled out plainly somewhere on the Muse forum:
1.) Rules of appropriate discussion in Muse Forums (what can and can not be discussed)
2.) Terms of Liability (what can legally happen to you or Muse, should damages be caused by posts violating (publicly prescribed) discussion rules (1)).
3.) Risks of privileged access (including definitions of privileged modification) - What can happen if you screw up various things (Registry, protections, scripts, ...)
4.) Costs associated with repairs. (Re-installs, Diagnostic Hourlies, HW)
One last recommendation for Muse:
Whether or not you have figured this out - Your community is the lifeline to your product. I acknowledge that you have some customers who never look at the forum, and only deal with customer support - but I'm guessing the vast majority of usage problems are answered on this forum. Potential customers also evaluate the health of the community and the public opinions stated on your forum. When you censor (well intentioned, helpful, and information that has not violated any public rules of discourse) from the community, you diminish the capability of your own community. The participants of this community have invested countless hours establishing techniques to install and use many unsupported plugs that Muse hasn't the time or other investments to support. This is part of what is selling your product at this moment. Unfulfilled promises of plugin compatibility are being mitigated by other techniques (some of them are priveleged). Direct Install and (potential synchrosoft) support go some of the way at improving the situation, but not all the way.
Hopefully this is viewed as more 'concrete suggestions' then as a soapbox.
Regards,
Kevin L
Probably not limits for you guys. If you're a programmer of reasonable aplomb, then tinkering with your Receptor might be irresistible, and if you want to mess around with it, hot rod it, tweak it, etc., then there is nothing we can do to stop you. After all, you bought it, you can do what you want with it - paint it black, plant it in your garden, do headstands on it, whack it with a hammer (ahem) and you're probably mature and responsible enough to know that if you break it, well, its your fault and you'd better figure out how to fix it if you want to keep using it. Nothing stopped John from painting his Rolls in psychedelic colors, and we're certainly not going to stop you from discovering your own inner Beatle.
Unfortunately, there are many users out there who are 'casual programmers' who might not be as adept at programming as yourselves (i.e.they're lousy painters), and they know just enough to get themselves into really big trouble, or they might be really curious about what's "under the hood" and as we all know, ANY computer can be bricked with just a few specific keystrokes. Especially if you have root access.
Hopefully you will agree that Muse Research takes customer satisfaction seriously, so when someone renders their Receptor silent, we are inclined, (if not actually legally obligated), to help them out. That means hours on the phone, and quite tragically in many many instances, hours of engineering time spent fixing damage from well-intentioned tinkerers instead of creating new features. So instead of creating new features that everyone can enjoy, our engineers are dealing with accidentally deleted files or screwed up directories or misplaced files because someone was rooting around (okay, pun intended) in an area that they shouldn't have been. And after having SEVERAL people call us up with Receptors that wouldn't work because they had chosen to "modify" their units, well, we knew that something needed to be done. Its important to understand we aren't doing this because we're paranoid that something might happen. It already has, and to several users. They'll tell you it wasn't fun as well.
THAT'S why we have a fairly 'strict' "no discussion" policy about modification to Receptor software. And another thing that I learned from the Corporate Attorney at E-MU who I used to work with: Not only does it pose a liability for us as a company who has to implicitly support customers who might tinker with their Receptors and inadvertently break something, but it is also a potential liability for YOU personally since you are, in essence, recommending procedures that people can perform without establishing appropriate disclaimers or indemnification... Made worse by the fact you're doing it on the Muse Research owned site. So legally, we could BOTH be held potentially liable. So I don't know about you, but we'd prefer not to do that.
Yeah, I know, I know, you're going to go throw up now with all the liability talk, but the fact is this is a company forum, and there is a certain amount of culpability that both the company and you as a posting individual assume when posting "recommendations" and "how tos". So as opposed to having to deal with all the ugliness that can ensue a situation like this, we ask that people refrain from posting any information that could be used to modify or otherwise change Receptor from its stock software configuration except through Drop Installers Here or the other general access folders. Hopefully this explains why we restrict people from posting information that could potentially harm a Receptor, and hopefully, when you're being objective, you can agree its the right thing to do.
As for the implication that it is censorship, I don't view it as censorship, after all many of you will pick up all sorts of blunt objects and hurl them at us and vent any anger or frustration you might have at our product, technology, or development schedules. There's even a couple of you who complain and moan about Receptor and DON'T EVEN OWN ONE. (and we know who you are... Ha! busted!)
So I think history shows at we are very willing to engage in open dialog, and we don't expunge things that are really hard for us to read because we don't like the tone of voice, or find that they are personally hurtful... I don't think its censorship to protect people from causing themselves harm... its common sense, like not leaving a loaded handgun where a child can get at it. (hopefully none of you are die hard NRA or I'm in for a heap of hurt)
Please don't be personally offended by any of this, and its definitely no insult to your intelligence or skills as a programmer that we have this policy (I'm regularly impressed with the intelligence and ingenuity of our customers) but we really aren't in a position to support people who unwittingly break their Receptors, and since we're the ones they call to have them fixed, we needed to do something about it.
Respectfully,
Groovology
Sorry this is so long by the way, I need an editor!