Just Intonation

[jancivil]

In the first place, just intonation has traditionally been used with what are called mutable intervals. Singers versed in the system can pull off amazing feats of modulation and weird chromaticism. This is all discussed at great length in Edward Lowinsky's Secret Chromatic Art in the Netherlands Motet.

Yes, I've heard these. But, vocal ensembles will drift even when they are singing in what they think is 12tet (which is why what you mention above works when you understand it).

In either system, if the intervals a "mutable" - i.e. ever-changing, then you're not really singing in *any* tuning scheme now are you It's really "just adjustment" of harmonies on the fly, which ultimately either cause unintentional drift, or, intentional modulation.

Steve

What would a singer (or a string or wind player) alter the interval towards??? Something that to the natural ear vibrates better than 12-ET. This is my experience. It's the reason it's really tough to get a true-sounding orchestration out of samples, and that's real.

"Drift" is a skewed characterization, it seems to me. It implies out-of-tune, when I'm not sure that's what's happening.

Steve, you complained of a bias when someone said 'most natural'; are you guilty of a bias from 'the other side'?

[MadBrain]

Hmm, I just went through a round of testing with my keyboard (which has adjustable tunings). Tried pythagorean, meantone, 66% meantone-33% pythagorean, 36% meantone-64% pythagorean (AKA equal temperament), some type of well-temperament in it's mostly meantone zone, and just intonation.

What keyboard is this? i think i want one.

I have a Roland Rs-5, which lets you tune each of the 12 notes up or down 63 cents, which is also AFAIK some MIDI standard for alternate tunings, so you'll probably find it on some other keyboards (incl. some big workstation keyboards). This is flexible enough to use different temperaments and accommodate Arabic music.

If you want to completely reinvent your keyboard though, I think the old yamaha DX-21 did that.

[jancivil]

Absynth has a number of intonations, werckmeister, some just, some mean, some arabic, some indian...
I think you can make your own, but, you have to be smart or something, so..

they spread out over the keyboard, and you have to map what's up according to the division of the octave, kind of odd to do.

[tapper mike]

Hmm, I just went through a round of testing with my keyboard (which has adjustable tunings). Tried pythagorean, meantone, 66% meantone-33% pythagorean, 36% meantone-64% pythagorean (AKA equal temperament), some type of well-temperament in it's mostly meantone zone, and just intonation.

What keyboard is this? i think i want one.

Scroll down to the microZones
http://www.starrlabs.com/keyboards.php

[mhemnarch]

Any recommendations on recordings to become familiar with alternate tuning systems?

[Mr Arkadin]

Harry Partch has many recordings based on his 43 tone system:
Harry Partch Volume 1
Harry Partch Volume 2
Harry Partch Volume 3
Harry Partch Volume 4

Enclosure II
Enclosure V
Enclosure VI
Enclosure VII(DVD)
Enclosure VIII(DVD)

The Wayward
Newband (with Dean Drummond)

John Schneider has a couple of CDs of Just intonated guitars (including some Partch)
Just Guitars
Just West Coast

Glenn Branca's Symphony No.3 (Gloria) utilises the first 127 intervals of the harmonic series

Terry Riley's The Harp of New Albion

Charles Ives, Varese, Lou Harrison, Ben Johnston, James Tenney. People like Ligeti and Penderecki use lots of microtones (although not necessarily adhering to a strict tuning system).

This just scratches the surface.

Huge list of works on CD here

[jancivil]

Harry Partch has many recordings based on his 43tET system:

Just by way of information (in case the abbreviation '[43]tET' is used here in its usual sense, '[43-]tone Equal Temperament'.): Just intonation isn't a temperament, and the intervals in such a system are anything but equally spaced.

But thank you for the links.

[bernhardtjeff]

people say things like "in ji, a c major chord might sound great, but the such-and-such chord will sound horrible, and you can't modulate to such-and-such a key, etc." this is all true, of course, but i thought these peculiarities were part of the charm of ji. indeed, lou harrison wrote something along these lines once (at least i think it was him!): "just intonation makes the consonances more consonant and the dissonances more dissonant." in et, on the other hand, you get certain harmonic abilities at the expense of half-assed consonances and half-assed dissonances. further, in ji, the dissonances tend to beat at regular intervals, which itself can be interesting, whereas in et, the ratios being the product of irrational numbers, you never get regular-beating intervals.

my favorite cd of ji music is one that someone mentioned before, john schneider's "just west coast." what ji loses in its ability to move around among harmonically complex chords it makes up for in its sensitivity to more simple melodic lines. a single melodic line that might sound mundane in et could sound much more compelling with the right intervals in ji, and i think that cd of john schneider's shows that. ji seems to allow for much for sensitivity in simple music than et.

anyway, while some people see ji's inability to modulate well and all that as a weakness, i always just figured that was one of the things that makes it interesting

[warp x]

So can anybody explain to me how I use the various tunings in Reaktor (if possible) or any other VSTi? I also have Modelonia, ZebraCM and some free stuff. (Mac)
I can't figure it out.

[warp x]

So can anybody explain to me how I use the various tunings in Reaktor (if possible) or any other VSTi? I also have Modelonia, ZebraCM and some free stuff. (Mac)
I can't figure it out.

Never mind, I found it in the Reaktor manual. (I think)

[jopy]

there's a pre-written module for alternate tunings in reaktor that i've stuck into a bunch of my ensembles. i think it was originally written by the mysterious "bubu from bubuland," but i know for sure it wasn't written by me--i'm not that clever.

the ensemble "FM Schwein 2" has the alternate tuning module, which you can just pull out and paste into any other instrument you want:

http://www.jopyjopyjopy.com/public/reak ... d-samplers

[warp x]

Thank you, much appreciated.

[jancivil]

people say things like "in ji, a c major chord might sound great, but the such-and-such chord will sound horrible, and you can't modulate to such-and-such a key, etc."
my favorite cd of ji music is one that someone mentioned before, john schneider's "just west coast." what ji loses in its ability to move around among harmonically complex chords it makes up for in its sensitivity to more simple melodic lines.

That's the whole idea of it, melodic lines compared to a tonic, or to create richer vibration vertically than is possible with certain temperaments. But, I don't get why 'simple' is a necessary result here.

[bernhardtjeff]

people say things like "in ji, a c major chord might sound great, but the such-and-such chord will sound horrible, and you can't modulate to such-and-such a key, etc."
my favorite cd of ji music is one that someone mentioned before, john schneider's "just west coast." what ji loses in its ability to move around among harmonically complex chords it makes up for in its sensitivity to more simple melodic lines.

That's the whole idea of it, melodic lines compared to a tonic, or to create richer vibration vertically than is possible with certain temperaments. But, I don't get why 'simple' is a necessary result here.

me either. let's ask someone who said that.

[jancivil]

Ok, what do 'you' mean by:

what [ji] lacks ... it makes up for in its sensitivity to more simple melodic lines.

?

I meant, and I'll be concrete, is a vocal raga, or a Persian melody, et al, necessarily a simple line.