V-Machine

[EvilDragon]

I see some people agreeing with me. That's the way to go

Zio, what do you think about predictive loading feature?

[VFXAU]

I have read the whole topic. It took me some hours.

I'm really overwhelmed by the idea behind the V-Machine, but really, it could have been better, waaaay better with a dualcore CPU and more RAM. This way, some of the most useful plugins (for me, Pianoteq - and I refuse to use any substitutes!) can't be made to work as I (and most other users) wish them to be. It's really a letdown for me, in a way. I'm not saying that I won't buy it because of this, but I won't buy it until it gets improved with better specs. Even if I have to wait until V-Machine 2.0 gets out (with better hardware, I guess), I'm willing to wait. V-Rack is price-wise too much for me, and I don't need that many ins and outs. Also, I like that V-Machine uses a solidstate drive, they are faster and more instant, but why over IDE bus? T_T another flop in the SATA times like today.

I don't intend to be mean to you guys, VFXAU you do a wonderful job here helping out people, I'm just saying that I'm kind of disappointed with what it turned out to be.

I know V-Machine doesn't need as much "grunt" to do what it does comparing it to a real PC, but, hell, if you're marketing it as being able to run 21 VST(i)s at once, the CPU should be able to cope with that. Otherwise that's just false claim. Sure, I can make it run 21 VSTs at once, but how will that sound, even God can't know XD

Bottom line - make it work with Pianoteq. FLAWLESSLY. At 128 poly. Then you have another buyer.

Also, I would like to know what do you think about the predictive plugin loading idea.

hehe... ok I will talk to Pianoteq and see what can be done, how many fingers do you have? (just joking)... I understand.

OK, the issue with costing is as I said before, you are comparing consumer products to a PRO-Audio product, not the same quanities not the same margin and certainly not the same product, we need to offer spare parts for 3 years, no way you can do that if you don't use embedded industrial type CPU and boards so our cost is much higher then the standard cost of units. We always said that this was the spec on the V-Machine, we never said that the CPU would be more on a standard V-Machine. Also the RAM is SO-Dimm so it is more expensive then normal RAM. A normal CPU would Cook and melt in 10 minutes working inside a V-Machine.

Will thier be upgrades later... sure we will.

Also when we said 21 VST's, we said LOAD 21 VST's not RUN, so you can quickly change with MIDI channels or MUTE buttons assigned to which VST you are running.

I agree with you that more would be nice, always is.. but I also feel that many VST programmers are writing software which can be optimised as well. We found that several VST's which have DUAL CORE support, switching off this support makes them work much better on the V-Machine, (like Yellow Tools independance) which takes a very small amount of CPU power to run.

Anyway, I will keep working hard here and updating you with info.

[aMUSEd]

I am not sure if you read the thread back 20 pages or so, but please don't compare the V-Machine to a PC, I know we all do (also I do) because that is what we know but the way it works, it needs allot less grunt to do what it does.

I just don't see how that is possible (as I said at another point in this thread). A 1ghz CPU is a 1ghz CPU - multiple tasking and processing power are not the same thing. I can see how having less demands on it (by not having to run Windows) will mean it has more resources to devote to the task of running VSTs but it will not make it any more powerful in terms of processing power (ie "grunt").

[VFXAU]

I am not sure if you read the thread back 20 pages or so, but please don't compare the V-Machine to a PC, I know we all do (also I do) because that is what we know but the way it works, it needs allot less grunt to do what it does.

I just don't see how that is possible (as I said at another point in this thread). A 1ghz CPU is a 1ghz CPU - multiple tasking and processing power are not the same thing. I can see how having less demands on it (by not having to run Windows) will mean it has more resources to devote to the task of running VSTs but it will not make it any more powerful in terms of processing power (ie "grunt").

I will try to explain, if a CPU needs to do less...
Like Not display things on a big graphics screen
not worry about mouse, kb input, network etc
Then you are dedicating a much larger part of it to doing the DSP for the plugin

We have 2 processors on the V-Machine, the second is dedicated to doing all the other tasks. MIDI, USB, Screen, Buttons.

Hope this helps you understand.

[ZioKiller]

Zio, what do you think about predictive loading feature?

Once they get to simulate a crystal ball, they can predict what patch you're going to use next

Seriously... if you read the previous posts, someone already posted a trick on how to do the predictive loading.
Assuming that you're going to load your presets in the exact sequence they were stored in (0, 1, 2, n), you can pre-load plugins by including them in the previous preset but setting them inactive (on a muted track).

For example:
Preset 1: VB3 active, MrRay muted
Preset 2: MrRay active, Minimonsta muted
Preset 3: Minimonsta active, Synth1 muted
and so on...

But this will work only in one direction. What if you switch presets backwards?

On the other hand, this trick also assumes that a muted plugin isn't taking CPU power, but this isn't true. A muted plugin is still a working process. As far as I know, the V-Machine doesn't allow bypassing (suspending) a plugin, which is another story, since in bypass mode the plugin is actually doing nothing.

[VFXAU]

Zio, what do you think about predictive loading feature?

Once they get to simulate a crystal ball, they can predict what patch you're going to use next

Seriously... if you read the previous posts, someone already posted a trick on how to do the predictive loading.
Assuming that you're going to load your presets in the exact sequence they were stored in (0, 1, 2, n), you can pre-load plugins by including them in the previous preset but setting them inactive (on a muted track).

For example:
Preset 1: VB3 active, MrRay muted
Preset 2: MrRay active, Minimonsta muted
Preset 3: Minimonsta active, Synth1 muted
and so on...

But this will work only in one direction. What if you switch presets backwards?

On the other hand, this trick also assumes that a muted plugin isn't taking CPU power, but this isn't true. A muted plugin is still a working process. As far as I know, the V-Machine doesn't allow bypassing (suspending) a plugin, which is another story, since in bypass mode the plugin is actually doing nothing.

It would still work backwards as the V-Machine looks at what is in the preset.
So you would just make sure you load up the others as well (forward or backwards in to memory)
Same would be on a normal PC, if you were to load a new VST each time it would also take time to do this unless you pre-load them into memory.

[EvilDragon]

Yes, I understood that part before. Why it couldn't be a 2 GHz CPU? It would make things fly probably.

And I have 10 fingers like most of you, too. I just tend to use sustain pedal when playing piano A LOT, and I don't want to degrade my performance by sacrificing Pianoteq's great reverb and exquisite sustain and harp resonances. Nothing beats that feeling, you know.

[EvilDragon]

Also, about predictive loading. I'm using only incrementive patch changes, so I ONLY go in one direction, and that's forward. I do that on all synths, it's the easiest way. That's why I suggested a special LIVE mode for V-Machine, that would allow exactly this.

There is a workaround, as I see, but it's not quite the same, not unless plugin bypassing is introduced, that would take the load off the CPU.

[VFXAU]

Yes, I understood that part before. Why it couldn't be a 2 GHz CPU? It would make things fly probably.

And I have 10 fingers like most of you, too. I just tend to use sustain pedal when playing piano A LOT, and I don't want to degrade my performance by sacrificing Pianoteq's great reverb and exquisite sustain and harp resonances. Nothing beats that feeling, you know.

Sure absolutly.. Maybe the rack version is for you... and use the V-machine for synths in your case.

Many customers are happy with just even the sampletank which is in the V-Machine are a large number of customers by the v-machine which have never even used VST's they don't know what all of us have been using or what is a VST or VSTi.. I also want more

[VFXAU]

Also, about predictive loading. I'm using only incrementive patch changes, so I ONLY go in one direction, and that's forward. I do that on all synths, it's the easiest way. That's why I suggested a special LIVE mode for V-Machine, that would allow exactly this.

There is a workaround, as I see, but it's not quite the same, not unless plugin bypassing is introduced, that would take the load off the CPU.

Most plugins don't use the CPU unless they get a MIDI input to play a note.
Make sure you switch off ANY effects and keep thier volumes on unity on the mixer (as lowering from unity means you are using CPU power as well) and just assign to a midi channel you are not using.
Some plugins I agree use CPU power when not used, but make sure to switch off the effects in any case.

[EvilDragon]

Yes, I understood that part before. Why it couldn't be a 2 GHz CPU? It would make things fly probably.

And I have 10 fingers like most of you, too. I just tend to use sustain pedal when playing piano A LOT, and I don't want to degrade my performance by sacrificing Pianoteq's great reverb and exquisite sustain and harp resonances. Nothing beats that feeling, you know.

Sure absolutly.. Maybe the rack version is for you... and use the V-machine for synths in your case.

Many customers are happy with just even the sampletank which is in the V-Machine are a large number of customers by the v-machine which have never even used VST's they don't know what all of us have been using or what is a VST or VSTi.. I also want more

The Rack version is by specs more for me, but I won't buy something I wouldn't use completely, you can understand that. To me, the multiple ins and outs are not necessary AT ALL. I like the V-Machine because it's simple, portable, and could solve all my issues live. IF IT ONLY were faster to solve my Pianoteq cravings (and as I said, I don't intend on using substitutes, as Pianoteq is my only piano I wish having live, no sample-based systems come near the playability and connectivity to it).

I'm curious - how does V-Machine cope with a monophonic Minimonsta patch with 4 voices unison and delay?

[ZioKiller]

Same would be on a normal PC, if you were to load a new VST each time it would also take time to do this unless you pre-load them into memory.

Ok, but loading a plugin and keeping it muted won't prevent it from taking CPU power. More than a mute, in this case a bypass would be better. But a bypass will prevent the plugin from completing its initialization phase (creating wavetable, loading samples, etc.)

I'd rather think to another approach that would work with all VST plugins: you could load a plugin into memory, send it all the INIT messages - setSampleRate(), setBlockSize(), setProgram(), and resume() - but skip the startProcess() so the plugin is there and stays ready for running but won't run untill activated by a preset. This is the same thing as loading the plugin, wait for the full init and setting it in bypass.

[EvilDragon]

I'd rather think to another approach that would work with all VST plugins: you could load a plugin into memory, send it all the INIT messages - setSampleRate(), setBlockSize(), setProgram(), and resume() - but skip the startProcess() so the plugin is there and stays ready for running but won't run untill activated by a preset. This is the same thing as loading the plugin, wait for the full init and setting it in bypass.

This seems like the way to go!

[VFXAU]

Same would be on a normal PC, if you were to load a new VST each time it would also take time to do this unless you pre-load them into memory.

Ok, but loading a plugin and keeping it muted won't prevent it from taking CPU power. More than a mute, in this case a bypass would be better. But a bypass will prevent the plugin from completing its initialization phase (creating wavetable, loading samples, etc.)

I'd rather think to another approach that would work with all VST plugins: you could load a plugin into memory, send it all the INIT messages - setSampleRate(), setBlockSize(), setProgram(), and resume() - but skip the startProcess() so the plugin is there and stays ready for running but won't run untill activated by a preset. This is the same thing as loading the plugin, wait for the full init and setting it in bypass.

OK interesting IDea, I will talk to the programmers.

[VFXAU]

Yes, I understood that part before. Why it couldn't be a 2 GHz CPU? It would make things fly probably.

And I have 10 fingers like most of you, too. I just tend to use sustain pedal when playing piano A LOT, and I don't want to degrade my performance by sacrificing Pianoteq's great reverb and exquisite sustain and harp resonances. Nothing beats that feeling, you know.

Sure absolutly.. Maybe the rack version is for you... and use the V-machine for synths in your case.

Many customers are happy with just even the sampletank which is in the V-Machine are a large number of customers by the v-machine which have never even used VST's they don't know what all of us have been using or what is a VST or VSTi.. I also want more

The Rack version is by specs more for me, but I won't buy something I wouldn't use completely, you can understand that. To me, the multiple ins and outs are not necessary AT ALL. I like the V-Machine because it's simple, portable, and could solve all my issues live. IF IT ONLY were faster to solve my Pianoteq cravings (and as I said, I don't intend on using substitutes, as Pianoteq is my only piano I wish having live, no sample-based systems come near the playability and connectivity to it).

I'm curious - how does V-Machine cope with a monophonic Minimonsta patch with 4 voices unison and delay?

I have not tested this particular patch but happy to test for you. I have tested 100's of plugins lately so I can't remember

As far as not having multiple outputs, from what I know the Rack will be 2 out and option to add upto 8 out.