What is Counterpoint?

[Ogg Vorbis]

Figured bass, as far as I can tell (and I was required to use it back in halcyon daze) does denote triadic structure.

If I see "V 4-2", I know immediately that the bass is a second (or 9th) from the indicated root and a fourth from what is surely going to be the third of the *chord*, etc, etc.

Hey Jancivil,

You won't see the roman numerals in actual figured bass. You are thinking of Rameau-based harmony analysis that every good college kid learns. Look at examples of actual figured bass from the literature and you'll see what I mean.

The roman numerals indicate triads with roots. These ideas are foreign concepts in the 17, 18th and 19th centuries except with J.P. Rameau and his merry band of nitwits.

That's why I was saying that it's sometimes confusing because this type of analyis looks like something you could give Bach's harpsichord player and he'd understand it.

Hope this helps sort out what I was driving at earlier.

[nuffink]

Maybe you could start the Pre-Rameaulite Brotherhood.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Maybe you could start the Pre-Rameaulite Brotherhood.

Actually I want to. I'd like to start a brotherhood and sit around, write species counterpoint on our appendages with soldering irons, chant "Fux is God" and "Rameau is a hoe!"

Then we can descend on university music departments and stage loud protests while singing "Kumbaya" as a cantus firmus.

[alphabetgreen]

OK Ogg, challenge for you. We both rewrite the tune of 'Kumbaya' for four unaccompanied voices in the style espoused by Fux, followed by the same tune in the form typified by a Bach Chorale. What will it take, an hour or so? I'm game.

[duncanparsons]

post the results, won't you

[alphabetgreen]

If he accepts the challenge, sure.

On the other hand, I might just go and do it anyway.

[VicDiesel]

OK Ogg, challenge for you.

Interesting experiment. Kumbaya a la Fux? Not enough harmonic motion I'd say.

Anyway. What's the challenge? What's the point being debated?

Victor.

[alphabetgreen]

Personally, I want to ascertain whether my learning of rennaissance counterpoint and baroque harmony corresponds with everybody elses.

[herodotus]

Then we can descend on university music departments and stage loud protests while singing "Kumbaya" as a cantus firmus.

No. 'We Shall Overcome', but in Latin.

Superabimus

Superabimus......

[Ogg Vorbis]

OK Ogg, challenge for you. We both rewrite the tune of 'Kumbaya' for four unaccompanied voices in the style espoused by Fux, followed by the same tune in the form typified by a Bach Chorale. What will it take, an hour or so? I'm game.

That's a fun challenge! I'll see how it goes. Maybe we should try hip hop Ockeghem.

Kyrie to the Eleison,
I got my Muthaf**kin' rays on.
I hope this rubba stays on,
And it don't dry up like a raisin.

[alphabetgreen]

I never thought I'd see the day when a first class rapper was also an expert on the idioms of renaissance counterpoint.

Okay, you're on! I'll have it posted up on this discussion in the next 24 hours.

[beboop]

I never thought I'd see the day when a first class rapper was also an expert on the idioms of renaissance counterpoint.

Okay, you're on! I'll have it posted up on this discussion in the next 24 hours.

yeah, and safe sex with UV protection!

if you can get seatbelts and a surgeon general's warning in there i think ya got a hit.

[Ogg Vorbis]

I never thought I'd see the day when a first class rapper was also an expert on the idioms of renaissance counterpoint.

Okay, you're on! I'll have it posted up on this discussion in the next 24 hours.

You go, boyeee. First class rapper? Wow, very generous thank you.

[jancivil]

Figured bass, as far as I can tell (and I was required to use it back in halcyon daze) does denote triadic structure.

If I see "V 4-2", I know immediately that the bass is a second (or 9th) from the indicated root and a fourth from what is surely going to be the third of the *chord*, etc, etc.

Hey Jancivil,

You won't see the roman numerals in actual figured bass. You are thinking of Rameau-based harmony analysis that every good college kid learns. Look at examples of actual figured bass from the literature and you'll see what I mean.

The roman numerals indicate triads with roots. These ideas are foreign concepts in the 17, 18th and 19th centuries except with J.P. Rameau and his merry band of nitwits.

That's why I was saying that it's sometimes confusing because this type of analyis looks like something you could give Bach's harpsichord player and he'd understand it.

Hope this helps sort out what I was driving at earlier.

Ok. I looked it up.
"Thourough-bass accomp. acc'ding to Johann David Heinichen".
[Frank Boothe]Heinichen?! f**k that shit! PABST BLUE RIBBON!!![/Frank Boothe]


what I found:

1st, the text agrees with you: "Much of the faulty terminology centers around the principle of chord inversions that Rameau championed in his Traite de l'harmonie (1722). Rameau's analysis of triads and their inversions and his system of fundamental basses that represented the roots of chords leave far behind the actual use of harmony in the Baroque..."

But then (after some discussion of one FT Arnold's early 20th c account, in the context of Heini's contempo "Saint Lambert", and the very slightly later "Mattheson"):

TRIADS
"In the beginning was the triad" describes succinctly not only the genesis of the thourough-bass but also each student's study of accompanying from a thourough-bass. The Trias harmonica - a bass note (Fundamental-clave), third, and fifth - becomes the Trias harmonica aucta by adding the bass octave..."

So, having taken your admonition to look at the literature, so far I am unable to wholly verify your particular claim of triads being foreign to 18th c. thought.

('Foreign to the practice of the 19th century', I do seriously doubt.)


Anyway, it's really difficult for me, as a modern musician (to me, this isn't more than a historical survey at this point anyway) to see any advantage of leaving the Roman numeral indication of roots out of the figures, in continuo accompaniment, or part-writing.

[alphabetgreen]

Figured bass is confusing anyway, even when Piston uses it. What could be more simple than A, B, C and D? (and E if you're into ninths).