Deleting notes with 1 mouse click

[liquidsound]

Using a double-click to delete a note would not be consequent with the rest of the MU.LAB GUI as double-click is normally used to 'edit' / 'open' / 'go deeper into' an object.

OK. Then use just one left click which is consistent with the first left click when inserting the note. Click In, Click Out. (Reaper)

Also the RNB motion was about scrolling, deleting a note using that protocol would be a mess, you're right, and I did not mean that fortunately .

I understand that in MuLab the RMB has to do with Menus but this is standard in almost any software so you are not going to breach MuLab philosophy I think.

Users agree that even though Reaper is going like a train with no brakes, their Midi editor is still not there yet. Except the above, it so hard to flow with it, you need to push modifiers, and mouse buttons, and wheel, and scroll bars in order to move around that ugly editor (personal opinion, no offense out there:-).

EnergyXT got it right, bar none, but the thing itself is not as polished as MuLab, that's for sure.

All I say is that Flexibility and Simplicity = Power and sometime is not so bad to go back and adjust the DNA in order to have a better creature.
Never mind Darwin!

[MuTools]

OK. Then use just one left click which is consistent with the first left click when inserting the note. Click In, Click Out. (Reaper)

Huh?

I checked reaper:

Insert note = double click
Delete note = double click

Also the RNB motion was about scrolling, deleting a note using that protocol would be a mess, you're right, and I did not mean that fortunately .

I understand that in MuLab the RMB has to do with Menus but this is standard in almost any software so you are not going to breach MuLab philosophy I think.

I agree that RMB-drag could be assigned a function as it clearly differentiates from a pure right-click to popup the context menu.

Now this seamlessly connects to another topic: the scrolling and zooming of the composer/sequence editor, which i'm currenty working on in M3.

I'll go in detail below as you're touching the topic too.

Users agree that even though Reaper is going like a train with no brakes, their Midi editor is still not there yet. Except the above, it so hard to flow with it, you need to push modifiers, and mouse buttons, and wheel, and scroll bars in order to move around that ugly editor (personal opinion, no offense out there:-).

Not sure: do you mean reaper's editor or mulab's editor?

(and btw: constructive feedback can never be offensive imho )

EnergyXT got it right, bar none, but the thing itself is not as polished as MuLab, that's for sure.

All I say is that Flexibility and Simplicity = Power and sometime is not so bad to go back and adjust the DNA in order to have a better creature.
Never mind Darwin!

I think mulab 2.5's scrolling/zooming can be improved and that's why i'm working on that.

The scrollbars and its zoom buttons won't change as that's a neat and clear standard.

But i'm talking about the mouse wheel and buttons to do the scrolling/zooming.

<brainstorming level>

I want to use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out. By default that will be horizontally only as that's the most relevant. Holding [Alt] will zoom vertically.

This seems to work very easy and intuitive

It's the same as in paint apps, google earth etc...

Now i'm only wondering which mouse button to use to 'grab' the editor and scroll it left/right/up/down.

It would be most logical to use the MMB i.e. the mouse wheel button as then scrolling and zooming are all done by the MMB.

Lets not worry to much about the "switch tool" thing which is currently under the MMB as that should be resolved by using a hot key (or the hard-coded 'T' now). (yes, hot keys will be part of M3)

But in practice it feels a bit weird to use the MMB to scroll.

Thing is that panning is not comfortable for my fingers

Also: when clicking the MMB to scroll around, i accidently scroll the MW from time to time and that unintentionally changes the zoom level.

I'm sure this will not only happen with me. It's caused by the fact that MW and MMB are 1 control.

So then we could think of using the RMB-drag to scroll around, but then the MW is for zooming, RMB for scrolling, that's a bit weird too, no?

I'll look some more at other apps to see how it's done, but from what i saw up to now, there clearly is no standard way.

Last but not least: i saw that reaper uses RMB-drag to make a lasso selection. That's interesting!

Because if we would do this too in MU.LAB, this means that the need for having 2 tools can go away and only keep the pencil tool! As making selections can be done by

-> Just click a single object
-> [Shift]+click multiple objects to select these individual objects
-> Right-click-drag to lasso select multiple objects (new selection)
-> [Shift]+right-click-drag to lasso select multiple objects (extend selection)

Curious for your opinions.

</brainstorming level>

[MuTools]

Ok, i found a possible neat solution for scrolling with the MMB:

Like in Internet Explorer and Audition etc: (also checked OSX Safari, but it doesn't use this (yet))

Click the MMB -> You get a navigator like this:



Then you can easily scroll around.

Click again to stop the navigation tool.

The big advantage of this method is that it only requires a single click of MMB and no click-and-drag of MMB which doesn't feel handy.

[aMUSEd]

We had this discussion in the Reaper forum recently because Justin (briefly) made one click deletion the default action but then it was too easy to delete notes you wanted to audition (since most of the time you click on a note to audition, select or move it). Seems to me having one click to delete may save mouse clicks but would also be a real pain and would add to the overall load and poor workflow.

Needless to say the idea got knocked on the head pretty quickly

[aMUSEd]

That's certainly a very common way too. And nothing would change there

It would if it was one click to delete as how would you select the note in the first place? (i.e. to select it you need to click on it once - but then it would be deleted)

[liquidsound]

FL Studio has the MWB to scroll around (some still have no wheel buttons and what you do with a laptop with no mouse on the go...?) and that means you have to take one finger off (either button) and as you point it out, it interferes with zooming which I think is the best for horizontal on the MWB. Like you say is The Standard in many Apps.

(BTW I use Reaper and I went back to it again and all I need is one click to add a note and a click to delete it "LMB". Maybe you have an old version? Or some different Preferences?).

About RMB multiple-Selection I really think that Scrolling is used so much, during regular composition and while playing "on the fly", that it preside above selection IMHO which is less frequent at least in the initial drafting stage when ideas are flowing in. That's when you need to Move around quickly and seamless with the creative as you do on paper by having free RMB scrolling. For me personal, I write a lot of improvisation without keyboard due to my life style and I use EnergyXT for that because once you use it, there is nothing above it for Flow (maybe not for long... . XT is able with RMB to do 3 things: Delete a note, Free scroll including while playing , Context Menu.

That leaves you with MuLab Protocol for the RMB menu, adding two things: eliminating Erase Tool and Modifier key for Scrolling. That's simplicity and Flow enhancement.
I am a Midi Editor Power user in the sense that I have no keyboard for most of the week and I tried everything under the sun and I work with Mouse programming for CAD efficiency and I see a lot Flow problems. A company called Rhinoceros (CAD) has implemented the RMB to a level that has burnt the competition beyond repair. That was one of the major key point of success: Flow, not Flaw

I really think that the major strength of MuLab is its Developer: you are there at every step (believe me, it sound obvious, but some manage to do the opposite).
I would not worry much about changing some Method Philosophy. To me (and to the rest of us if I can speak for them) is more important to have a keen developer and a final evolved application even if it re-invent itself.

Years from now and thousands of users later we will care of the moment and not the past. Changes for the better are welcome.
I am sorry for the long post but there is more then just pointing things out.

[MuTools]

Note that the one-click deletion would only work on the head of the note, cfr this picture:



Monitoring a note is done by [Alt]+click a note so chance is almost zero there could be a miss between 'delete' and 'monitor'.

Needless to say the idea got knocked on the head pretty quickly

I can understand such idea was trashed in reaper as there the chance on a miss would have been much bigger as it uses another gui scheme.

[aMUSEd]

The last thing I would want would be to have to use a modifier to audition a note as it leave me with no hands free for playing. Single click to audition is preferable by far to single click to delete.

Also your idea about just clicking on the "head" of a note only makes sense if it is big enough to have 3 clearly distinguishable zones - what if it's just a short note?

[MuTools]

It would if it was one click to delete as how would you select the note in the first place? (i.e. to select it you need to click on it once - but then it would be deleted)

Select the note by clicking on it (the 'body' part i.e. not the head or the tail), then press delete. Or lasso notes and press delete.

So in fact the same as in MU.LAB 2.5

[MuTools]

FL Studio has the MWB to scroll around (some still have no wheel buttons and what you do with a laptop with no mouse on the go...?)

In MU.LAB i would keep the scrollbars anyway for the situation where there is no MW/MMB and for the newbie who doesn't (yet) know about the MW/MMB.

Nesides this, i've been thinking about a power-user preference to hide the scrollbars in case you only use the MW/MMBto scroll/zoom around. Hiding the scrollbars would make the GUI more 'light' and would save screen space.

Just a rough idea.

About RMB multiple-Selection I really think that Scrolling is used so much, during regular composition and while playing "on the fly", that it preside above selection IMHO which is less frequent at least in the initial drafting stage when ideas are flowing in.

Scrolling would be done by MMB. So it's available.

That leaves you with MuLab Protocol for the RMB menu, adding two things: eliminating Erase Tool and Modifier key for Scrolling. That's simplicity and Flow enhancement.

Oops, not sure what you mean here.

I am a Midi Editor Power user in the sense that I have no keyboard for most of the week and I tried everything under the sun and I work with Mouse programming for CAD efficiency and I see a lot Flow problems. A company called Rhinoceros (CAD) has implemented the RMB to a level that has burnt the competition beyond repair. That was one of the major key point of success: Flow, not Flaw

I fully agree that a fluent workflow is Very Important.

That's why i'm focussing on it quite heavily.

Appreciating all your feedback here!

For my interest: What's so super about Rhinoceros' implementation?

I really think that the major strength of MuLab is its Developer: you are there at every step (believe me, it sound obvious, but some manage to do the opposite).
I would not worry much about changing some Method Philosophy. To me (and to the rest of us if I can speak for them) is more important to have a keen developer and a final evolved application even if it re-invent itself.

Thank you

Years from now and thousands of users later we will care of the moment and not the past. Changes for the better are welcome.

I agree.

I am sorry for the long post but there is more then just pointing things out.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[MuTools]

The last thing I would want would be to have to use a modifier to audition a note as it leave me with no hands free for playing. Single click to audition is preferable by far to single click to delete.

Why monitor a note and play the keyboard at the same time?
Ah, maybe to look for the right key on the keyboard?

Also your idea about just clicking on the "head" of a note only makes sense if it is big enough to have 3 clearly distinguishable zones - what if it's just a short note?

Proposal: Notes would always be at least 12 pixels width, so that the head and the tail are at least 4 pixels width.

[MuTools]

The last thing I would want would be to have to use a modifier to audition a note as it leave me with no hands free for playing. Single click to audition is preferable by far to single click to delete.

I would also install a "Monitor Event(s)" function that can be used with a shortcut key.

So select (a) note(s) + press that key = monitor those notes as long as the key is down. (cfr the Tab key in Muzys)

This will be an nice alternative way to monitor notes.

[aMUSEd]

The last thing I would want would be to have to use a modifier to audition a note as it leave me with no hands free for playing. Single click to audition is preferable by far to single click to delete.

Why monitor a note and play the keyboard at the same time?
Ah, maybe to look for the right key on the keyboard?

Yes. My workflow would be to play my keyboard and record the midi from that. I never use piano roll for composition. However if I get a note wrong (which I do occasionally) or want to make minor edits I want to be able to select and audition notes while comparing with what I play on the keys. The best solution would be a button to turn monitoring on (like in Ableton live) I hate using keyboard shortcuts - OK for the mouse entry musicians but not if you use keys (also no good if, like me, you don't have a memory for them or have a visual or somatosensory learning style - I prefer to navigate an interface visually and play/compose physically).

[robenestobenz]

But in practice it feels a bit weird to use the MMB to scroll.

Also: when clicking the MMB to scroll around, i accidently scroll the MW from time to time and that unintentionally changes the zoom level.

I'm sure this will not only happen with me. It's caused by the fact that MW and MMB are 1 control.

Yup, having both on middle mouse sounds like a bad and quite uncomfortable implementation to me.

So then we could think of using the RMB-drag to scroll around, but then the MW is for zooming, RMB for scrolling, that's a bit weird too, no?

I actually think this is the best way. Because, well, a) I'm used to it from XT and other programs and b) because you can then very comfortably drag with RMB and zoom with the mousewheel at the same time. Which offers an advantage in controlling the view as there are quite regular situations where being able to do both simultaneously is very useful: e.g. when you are moving to different sections of the song that might be quite far apart at your current zoom level. This would be extremely uncomfortable to do otherwise. Of course, while you are dragging, zoom would NOT go to the cursor's centre point, but to the centre of the current visible area.

Last but not least: i saw that reaper uses RMB-drag to make a lasso selection. That's interesting!

Because if we would do this too in MU.LAB, this means that the need for having 2 tools can go away and only keep the pencil tool! As making selections can be done by

-> Just click a single object
-> [Shift]+click multiple objects to select these individual objects
-> Right-click-drag to lasso select multiple objects (new selection)
-> [Shift]+right-click-drag to lasso select multiple objects (extend selection)

So would left click be set to permanent draw/manipulate then? Not sure how this would feel without trying it -- it is a major departure from standard functionality, after all. The main wrangle with the tools system that I have at the moment is that your main MIDI view can have a different tool selected from the automation lane. That drives me nuts.

[MuTools]

Yup, having both on middle mouse sounds like a bad and quite uncomfortable implementation to me.

From further research i learned that it IS done this way in several apps though!

E.g. FL Studio, GIMP, ...

Anyway, from what i read here on the forum and in my mailbox it's clear that there is no real standard way of zooming/scrolling/panning around ...

It depends from app to app.

So then we could think of using the RMB-drag to scroll around, but then the MW is for zooming, RMB for scrolling, that's a bit weird too, no?

I actually think this is the best way. Because, well, a) I'm used to it from XT and other programs and b) because you can then very comfortably drag with RMB and zoom with the mousewheel at the same time.

No, zooming and panning (i.e. 'grabbing the work sheet and move it around') would be 2 separate functions, sorry.

Last but not least: i saw that reaper uses RMB-drag to make a lasso selection. That's interesting!

Because if we would do this too in MU.LAB, this means that the need for having 2 tools can go away and only keep the pencil tool!

So would left click be set to permanent draw/manipulate then?

Yes. With the big advantage that tool switching hassle would be history.

But i'm not (yet?) convinced that RMB-lasso is a proper way to lasso select objects...

It would also be weird in the audio editor that LMB would do nothing and you have to RMB-drag to lasso select a portion of audio