Deleting notes with 1 mouse click

[MuTools]

Not sure how this would feel without trying it -- it is a major departure from standard functionality, after all.

I'll make a test version so everyone can try it out.

As well the note deletion thing as the scroll/zoom/pan thing.

It's becoming a bit too much text for things which are so empirical.

The main wrangle with the tools system that I have at the moment is that your main MIDI view can have a different tool selected from the automation lane. That drives me nuts.

Chance is high this will be no prob anymore because, as things are evolving now, M3 will use a common toolbox in the sequence editor.

[robenestobenz]

No, zooming and panning (i.e. 'grabbing the work sheet and move it around') would be 2 separate functions, sorry.

I know they'd be separate: what I'm talking about is panning with RMB held down, and zooming with the mousewheel. Do you mean you wouldn't be able to do both at the same time?

Pleased to hear about the toolbox in M3 anyway, sounds like it's going to be a great update.

[MuTools]

Indeed. While you're panning, the scroll wheel wouldn't work.

[robenestobenz]

Indeed. While you're panning, the scroll wheel wouldn't work.

Oh well. Was worth asking

[MuTools]

Here is a test build: (windows only for now)

http://www.mutools.com/mulab/test/mulab ... 20-win.zip

Note that this test build is totally unusable for music creation and it is supposed to be unstable;

It is only meant to try out the part/note deletion thing and the pan/zoom thing discussed in this topic.

About part/note deletion:

Hover the head of note shows the gum, so you can delete a part/note with a single click.

Hover head + hold [Alt] shows the pencil to trim the start of a part/note.

About pan/zoom:

MiddleMouseButton: Click and drag to pan around

MouseWheel: Zoom in/out in 'main' direction i.e. horizontal for composer and sequence editor.

+[Alt] = zoom in 'other' direction.

Zooming is always centered on the mouse cursor.

In fact, you can also move the worksheet to the point you want by zooming out, then pointing to the place you want and zoom back in again

This pan/zoom behaviour is a synthesis of what i found in other apps and based on your opinions here and via mail.

All still open for discussion.

Curious for your feedback.

[liquidsound]

Jo, it seems that RMB for free scrolling is the most intuitive, non-intrusive and not conflicting with your context menu and...it is a proven success in XT, truly!

About Rhinoceros RMB is that you can repeat the last command (incredibly powerful), use it as Enter, +Shift Pan (scrolling) around, Rotate 3D, +Ctrl Zoom, Alt+Ctrl Move Camera, Shift+Alt Tilt view etc. according to context.

Well MuLab needs only to Free Scroll fortunately.

If RMB gets to be Free Scrolling MuLab is going to have Monopoly in my music world.

[MuTools]

Jo, it seems that RMB for free scrolling is the most intuitive, non-intrusive and not conflicting with your context menu and...it is a proven success in XT, truly!

About Rhinoceros RMB is that you can repeat the last command (incredibly powerful), use it as Enter, +Shift Pan (scrolling) around, Rotate 3D, +Ctrl Zoom, Alt+Ctrl Move Camera, Shift+Alt Tilt view etc. according to context.

Well MuLab needs only to Free Scroll fortunately.

If RMB gets to be Free Scrolling MuLab is going to have Monopoly in my music world.

I'm open to RMB-drag = pan worksheet.

It's not yet implemented in the above test version, but it would be the same effect as MMB-drag in that test version.

Then i would go for a parrallel implementation i.e.

MMB-drag = pan worksheet
RMB-drag = pan worksheet

Just to cover what most people are used to.

No promises yet, still brainstorming and processing feedback.

[liquidsound]

I don't know how difficult it would be but there is always a User Preferences option just in case you see a 50/50 call for methods.

Your announcement of the RMB scrolling made my day. I love MuLab from top to bottom and the only problem was the editor flow... well, no More!!
Thank you.

[robenestobenz]

Right, tested the experimental version out. My thoughts:

The 1 click delete didn't feel right to me. Firstly, I more often adjust note starts than delete them, so it of course feels like the rarer function should be the one accessed via modifier. That might be unique to my workflow though, where I often play the MIDI controller and then tweak the results of my invariably poor timing. It also felt unnatural for the default behaviour to vary from note edge to note edge. Finally, with the combination of MuLab's large edge hotspots and a smaller zoom level I found myself occasionally deleting notes I wanted to select which was quite annoying.

It felt excellent to be able to smoothly pan around, can't wait for this to be incorporated into the stable version. I'm a RMB supporter, but I think running both would be best as long as there isn't a strong case for saving either RMB or MMB for another function. I can't think of one.

The vertical/horizontal zoom implementation feels much better than the old one to me. Having to use two modifiers to zoom horizontally (probably the more common zoom) was a bit too much for me, and I like modifiers as an interaction strategy.

[liquidsound]

Tested.
The scrolling is so refreshing! I agree with robenestonenz since is one of my strongest call for the RMB scrolling.
I can't stand the MW as in FL but there are users that wish for it, so I think Jo decision for both is a fair one.

I do not mind the one-click delete because I tend to move the whole note rather then correcting the beginning (I work a lot with 128th note-grid and it seems to cover most of my fine tuning needs, I wish Jo would close one eye and put this grid value in ').

Is double LMB really that bad for delete? As an alternative of course. It sound unusual but in practice is no bad at all. There is a basic reason for using the right hand as much as possible: the right hemisphere of the brain is the Creative one and it is wired to the left hand. When we use modifiers we stop the right brain flow even for a nano moment. You can feel it if you pay attention when you do that. I am not exaggerating, after talking to many CAD designers as a consultant, time and times again they liked Rhino because of the ability to focus on the subject using only the Mouse for most of the work.

The zoom is excellent.

It already feel like a totally new version.

[MuTools]

The 1 click delete didn't feel right to me. - That might be unique to my workflow though, where I often play the MIDI controller and then tweak the results of my invariably poor timing.

But then you have to 'move' notes not 'change the start', no?

Because changing the start does not change the end and so the note length is changed!

It also felt unnatural for the default behaviour to vary from note edge to note edge.

Euh, i don't understand what you mean here.

Finally, with the combination of MuLab's large edge hotspots and a smaller zoom level I found myself occasionally deleting notes I wanted to select which was quite annoying.

That's a bit strange because the gum only works when it is really the visible cursor. So you must have clicked with the gum.

Anyway, i understand that when notes are very small, the 3 zones in a note can become too small to be handy workable.

My first solution was to increase the minimum width of a note to 12 pixels so that the 3 zones are at least 4 pixels width.

An alternative solution would be:

* lets take as principle that a zone must be at least 8 pixels width
* for wide notes, no problem, 3 zones: head, body, tail
* when the note is < 24p, then we only have a body and end zone
* when the note is < 16p, then we only have a body

Maybe this sounds a bit complex but the good thing is that you never have to think about this, as MU.LAB will always show the relevant mouse tool and so you can just look at the mouse tool to see what you got in your hand.

So this would mean that very small notes (e.g. when very zoomed out) only have a body and thus can only be selected/moved/copy/monitored. If you would like to change the start of end of a note or delete it by using the mouse you got to zoom in in this case.

What do you think?

It felt excellent to be able to smoothly pan around, can't wait for this to be incorporated into the stable version. I'm a RMB supporter, but I think running both would be best as long as there isn't a strong case for saving either RMB or MMB for another function. I can't think of one.

I agree.

I don't think RMB-drag to pan/zoom around is a 'waste'. Especially if i read the enthusiasm about RMB-pan/zoom. Which i can understand as a user myself.

So i think we have a nice consensus on the pan/zoom topic

[MuTools]

I work a lot with 128th note-grid and it seems to cover most of my fine tuning needs, I wish Jo would close one eye and put this grid value in.

Taken note of this. Will look at it again at proper time.

Is double LMB really that bad for delete?

It would not be conform the MU.LAB GUI

And besides this, i've been thinking a couple of times already about double-click note = popup dialog with this note details like in the list editor.

Not sure yet on this as i might also go for a event properties bar at the bottom of the sequence editor, cfr muzys.

There is a basic reason for using the right hand as much as possible: the right hemisphere of the brain is the Creative one and it is wired to the left hand. When we use modifiers we stop the right brain flow even for a nano moment. You can feel it if you pay attention when you do that. I am not exaggerating, after talking to many CAD designers as a consultant, time and times again they liked Rhino because of the ability to focus on the subject using only the Mouse for most of the work.

Very interesting!

I also take such considerations into account as the ultimate goal of music software is that you can let flow your musical creativity and minimize the 'have to think' as much as possible.

[pljones]

Because changing the start does not change the end and so the note length is changed!

Not in my case -- the note off gets ignored for triggered drums. Couldn't care where the end is. (However, I'm keeping out of this... )

It also felt unnatural for the default behaviour to vary from note edge to note edge.

Euh, i don't understand what you mean here.

Dragging either end of the note should have the same effect... it probably feels odd when you go to grab the start and the note vanishes. (I've not tried it but I can understand it might be odd.)

What do you think?

Actually, that doesn't sound a bad idea.

(Damn, didn't keep out of it very well, did I? )

And besides this, i've been thinking a couple of times already about double-click note = popup dialog with this note details like in the list editor.

Or open the list editor at the double clicked note. At the moment, it's fairly hard to navigate the list editor. This would make it much nicer.

[liquidsound]

I don't think RMB-drag to pan/zoom around is a 'waste'. Especially if i read the enthusiasm about RMB-pan/zoom. Which i can understand as a user myself.

So i think we have a nice consensus on the pan/zoom topic

You bet! Beside consensus you'll get XT users migration, like me (I know that's not your intention anyway).

It would not be conform the MU.LAB GUI Confused

And besides this, i've been thinking a couple of times already about double-click note = popup dialog with this note details like in the list editor.

Not sure yet on this as i might also go for a event properties bar at the bottom of the sequence editor, cfr muzys.

This sound even better!

One thing I do not understand from "robenestonenz" since he's a XT user (like me...not for long though ) is that in XT when you zoom out and the notes get small it's very hard to change their length. You need 2 zoom levels: 1 to change the end of the note and the 2nd (closer) to change the start.
In your Test File I found that it is already much better (also your zoom stops when it reaches the smallest workable note size, clever.)

Thanks for at least considering the 128th factor, it really helps in many improvisation bursts.

Jo I wish you the best. You really think with a long term vision in mind together with the users. It's not easy, we (users) tend to lose the overall picture by focusing on our personal needs.

[pquenin]

Hello, I have tested the test version and I like the zoom/pan thing.
But I don't really love the gum ! It seem more natural to change the note start by default. I have no solution for the "one click" delete, but in 2 clicks : RMB and "delete" at the top of the context menu ?