u-he

Polybius · Post by **Polybius** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:29 pm

I just spent 20 minutes searching for all my patches i created since moving to Vista. Turns out all patches are now automatically stored in the hidden folder:

C:\Users\MyUserName\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\U-he\Presets

Did some searching on Google and found the following information on some forum:

The truth is that you cannot fix this from your end. The fix has to come
from the developer for that program. Check with the developer to see if they
have an update available that makes the program compatible with Vista.

Microsoft included the file virtualization component in Vista so that
programs which have not been updated for Vista will still work until the
program can be updated.

It's just a minor thing, but having my precious patches buried 7 layers deep inside some obscure hidden folder kind of gives me the heeby jeebies

Any way i can fix this myself Urs? I feel like i've been breakin' yer balls enough the past couple days

sorry about that!

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:56 pm

Huh?!? I run Vista too, and everything is in C:\Program Files\u-he\

My C:\Users\MyUserName\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Pro gram Files\ is empty...

?!?

Polybius · Post by **Polybius** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:01 pm

Urs wrote:Huh?!? I run Vista too, and everything is in C:\Program Files\u-he\

My C:\Users\MyUserName\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Pro gram Files\ is empty...

?!?

Hmmm...must be me doing something wrong then. I'll check my user settings. Thing is, the guy from the store installed my Vista to see if it runs (i upgraded my CPU & mobo). And i haven't bothered reïnstalling, because everything looked fine. Maybe he messed with a user setting i don't know anything about. All i know is i'm running as administrator, mabe not good?

I bet someone else must have noticed if this was a Zebra thing, so i'll get this one sorted on my end.

Sorry to bother

Polybius · Post by **Polybius** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:29 pm

Ugh, figured it would be something like this. For future reference: running Renoise as administrator fixed the problem.

cwig · Post by **cwig** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:40 pm

Urs wrote:Huh?!? I run Vista too, and everything is in C:\Program Files\u-he\

My C:\Users\MyUserName\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Pro gram Files\ is empty...

?!?

A Vista compatible program should not write to any file under the C:\Program Files folder. This folder exists to store program files only. Program files are considered any files your program needs to run that are not user specific. The files here are NOT meant to be modified except during an install, uninstall, or upgrade.

Files your users create using your program are to be stored inside that user's profile folder, such as their documents folder.

http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums ... 82f58cfda/

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:05 am

I had to make a choice: Use the registry or not. I voted against that for the sole cumbersomeness of the concept. I thus rely on the one and only reliable user-accessible path I found in Windows: C:\Program Files\. This is where application data is stored (as intended by the system developers) and this is also where presets are stored (for sake of simlicity). Unless Microsoft threatens me with the battle to the death, I'll keep it that way.

If users dislike this paradigm, they're free to install everything into Vstplugins, which is available as a pre-installed option on the downloads page for Zebra2.

I have no intention to explore Microsoft's efforts to create user spaces. Last time I checked, it's been a cluster of contradictions. I do not want to go from one hassle to the next because of changes that come with service packs and what not. I'd then rather go with the registry, and require the user to do extra work, such as have him care for paths himself. Which makes the user experience a bit less pleasant.

Sorry for the rant. I workaround Redmond because I've had enough of that crap from Cupertino.

Urs

cwig · Post by **cwig** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:28 am

Urs wrote:I had to make a choice: Use the registry or not. I voted against that for the sole cumbersomeness of the concept. I thus rely on the one and only reliable user-accessible path I found in Windows: C:\Program Files\.

It isn't any more difficult to reliably obtain the path to either the (current) user document folder, or the doc folder available to all users.

Which makes the user experience a bit less pleasant.

It can be pretty unpleasant with the current system too. Problem is, without the "VirtualStore" system, presets would not be saved at all (and you get no warning!). Personally, I wouldn't touch Vista even with a 10 foot pole, but I tested this with a limited account on XP: Hit Save, the preset appeared to be saved (no error), but of course it was not - pretty nasty if you had just spent the last 2 hours working on the new killer preset.

Kyran · Post by **Kyran** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:29 am

The thing is that the user can't write into the program files folder unless he gains admin rights (you know the thing that causes a hundred "are you sure" popups to appear)

So if you are running your host in user space (which is how it should be done, admin is a huge security risk), vista will redirect any write call to program files to the burried hidden folder.

As much as I detest it, I think it would be better if zebra would write it's presets into the user documents folder or even just the user folder.

Running your host as admin just isn't option.

asseca · Post by **asseca** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:56 am

Another option might be to have an "u-he.ini" file in the u-he plugins folder containing an entry: "[Folders]" --> "DataFolder=C:\My Documents".

If all u-he products would read this ini-file, then the user has the option to point the DataFolder to where-ever it suits him/her ...

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:11 am

Hmmm, I always thought that running anything as a non-admin isn't an option. I tried using Vista as a default user, and it does not seem to work at all. I think one can't even type three words in Wordpad without clicking away a bunch of alerts.

The problem with a user-based installation is the same as on Mac: An installer can't properly reach the user directories. I think that a separation of presets from user generated patches isn't viable. I also do not like the idea that the installer generates two locations: Application data (goes to Program Files) and Preset data (goes to MS paranoia proof documents folder)

I'll think about it, but someone should tell Micorsoft that it wouldn't be a big deal if they had a consistent layout and a secure system in the first place.

Urs

Kyran · Post by **Kyran** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:20 pm

I figured out why you can write into the program files folder.
If you turn UAC off (you know the freaking alert system), you effectively give admin rights to your user account, so it can write to program files.
Turning off UAC also turns off this virtual store copying thing.

Also, a windows installer can get the user that initiated the install. You can install for the current user only, or for all users. (Mostly this means that a start menu entry is created in the folder for the current user, or the all users folder)

A lot of users will run with UAC on. (I have it on, but switched to silent mode, which means a lot less popups). They will not find their user patches. If I have to choose between having them somewhere in the "my documents" folder, or somewhere seven levels deep in a hidden folder, then well ...

Another option would be to create a preset folder at run time, not install time. You just install the necessary files, and then when the plugin is run, you create the user preset folders in the user folder. At run time you do know which user is running the plugin.

pannoctis · Post by **pannoctis** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:23 am

Hello,

what's the current verdict where the 3rd party presets should go in Vista?

On my setup they are split:

the ones from the default install are on C/program files/u-he

and the 3rd party presets are on

are on C/user/appdata/.../virtual store/u-he (I put them in there after reading this thread)

Is this ok or is a different setup more advisable?

Before I put anything in the virtual folder, it wasn't empty but contained a folder named "MIDI programs", which was empty. I wasn't able to see MIDI programs in the Zebra preset browser until I had dumped the 3rd party presets alongside. Can I delete MIDI programs (since it doesn't contain anything) or does it have to be there?

I already was a bit miffed when I had problems finding my presets for Alchemy and Gladiator, but apparently it's the same drag for every Vst.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:23 am

pannoctis wrote:Before I put anything in the virtual folder, it wasn't empty but contained a folder named "MIDI programs", which was empty. I wasn't able to see MIDI programs in the Zebra preset browser until I had dumped the 3rd party presets alongside. Can I delete MIDI programs (since it doesn't contain anything) or does it have to be there?

The MIDI Programs directory is created by Zebra itself. It's the place where you can put your favourite patches with quick realtime access through MIDI Program Changes. This folder is scanned once when you open your first Zebra instance. The patches found are then converted into a memory efficient and fast loadable format. This is because loading patches (disc access) from a thread that serves MIDI is a great source of crashes, making this workaround necessary.

Unfortunately one can't get rid of that directory - it honestly boils down to a simple calculation: The support effort of telling people how to find it outweighs the support effort of telling people why it's there...

Urs

u-he

KVR Audio

Small Vista niggle - preset save path