What do you like most about songs ?

[Gamma-UT]

What I meant - and didn't convey so well - is that non-musicians are not so much interested in the melody if a person isn't singing it.

What's the argument with the rolling eyes? I said Cyndi sells the tune with the lyric. I'm sure there are plenty people who are utterly non plussed with Miles's version, who adore Cyndi and bought all her records.

In terms of 'did well/sold' why don't we look at relative pop vs classical sales, which I'll bet you money supports what I'm saying here.

Beyond that, maybe it is that people who bought the classical arrangement, or the Z cover, can characterize people who care about music more than the people who stick with Britney et al's original?

Your point as I understand was that 'people who don't care about music' (I interpreted that as meaning casual listeners) need a vocal to like music. I picked the pop classical example because it was the best example I could think of people buying instrumental music where they are not greatly concerned about the context in which it would normally sit (why have a collection of "best of Mozart" when you can just go get them in their entirety?). And so it maybe is the thing for people who 'don't care about music'. But if people buy and listen to that stuff, then it hardly indicates they 'need' a vocal to hear music.

That pop outsells classical in general is not in dispute. But, those snippet compilations have done very well for some time.

EDIT: Thinking about it, Kenny G is a more obvious example. But I only just thought of it.

[dgkenney]

i also like me some Schubert

Me too....my favorite is Orange Schubert with one of those little pirouette cookies on the side.

As for the orignal proposition, anyone who doesn't like the music I like, clearly doesn't care about music.


Dan

[Doug1978-OLD]

I go crazy for a bit of iambic pentameter

[dgkenney]

I go crazy for a bit of iambic pentameter

I prefer the nordic biathlon

Dan

[Doug1978-OLD]

I go crazy for a bit of iambic pentameter

I prefer the nordic biathlon

Dan

You dirty sod!

[jancivil]

What I meant - and didn't convey so well - is that non-musicians are not so much interested in the melody if a person isn't singing it.

What's the argument with the rolling eyes? I said Cyndi sells the tune with the lyric. I'm sure there are plenty people who are utterly non plussed with Miles's version, who adore Cyndi and bought all her records.

In terms of 'did well/sold' why don't we look at relative pop vs classical sales, which I'll bet you money supports what I'm saying here.

Beyond that, maybe it is that people who bought the classical arrangement, or the Z cover, can characterize people who care about music more than the people who stick with Britney et al's original?

Your point as I understand was that 'people who don't care about music' (I interpreted that as meaning casual listeners) need a vocal to like music. I picked the pop classical example because it was the best example I could think of people buying instrumental music where they are not greatly concerned about the context in which it would normally sit (why have a collection of "best of Mozart" when you can just go get them in their entirety?). And so it maybe is the thing for people who 'don't care about music'. But if people buy and listen to that stuff, then it hardly indicates they 'need' a vocal to hear music.

That pop outsells classical in general is not in dispute. But, those snippet compilations have done very well for some time.

EDIT: Thinking about it, Kenny G is a more obvious example. But I only just thought of it.

well, you're right about that. My broad generalization doesn't hold in all cases. Can we agree, that if they heard the song, sung, with lyrics, they will more or less recognize the tune and not necessarily care about the personality/star act having to do the thing. But I do think that if that tune had been presented in the first place to many if not most of the people who bought the 1001 strings do whatever, as an instrumental on the radio, as if that would even happen in 99% of cases, they would think to go to the store and buy it.

My argument was, that if they would have thought to do, they care more about music than the other hypothetical audience, who I do believe needs words to relate to a song.

[Gamma-UT]

...the other hypothetical audience, who I do believe needs words to relate to a song.

I can see your point. I disagree: I think the situation is slightly more complex than that. But I can't find much in the way of hard evidence to support either assertion. I'd argue that Kenny G plays music for people who don't really like music all that much but I'm not sure but it's based on my impression of other people's (non-)listening habits.

[eduardo_b]

People who don't care much about music need lyrics to even hear a tune.

The problem with these kinds of discussions on kvr is that those who hang out here have a very different perspective than the vast majority of music consumers. It's not an elitist thing (usually), but it is a focus on components of music that simply are not on the radar for probably more than 90 percent of listeners. So, as a value judgement, lyrics get far less attention here than in what I'll call the real world. I voted for lyrics because well-crafted lyrics separate money from me to buy music much faster than anything else. Note how many votes melody has gotten, making my point.

The commercial music business exists because of lyrics. A good melody matters, but the words are the focus for most people most of the time. That's why they buy music. But, it's not why most kvr people make music.

[jancivil]

...the other hypothetical audience, who I do believe needs words to relate to a song.

I can see your point. I disagree: I think the situation is slightly more complex than that. But I can't find much in the way of hard evidence to support either assertion. I'd argue that Kenny G plays music for people who don't really like music all that much but I'm not sure but it's based on my impression of other people's (non-)listening habits.

well, I wonder if anyone likes Kenny G less than do I. I think that people who buy that shit think it's real music but just haven't heard very much of it to get any perspective on (instrumental) music.

I think our disagreement per necessity of lyrics is a matter of degrees rather than a fundamental one.

I think a good melody stands a better chance, regardless; which would support your point more than mine. But I could be SO wrong in that thought, so I'm sticking with skepticism and my broad stroke of, 'they need lyrics, most of 'em'. "Commercial music biz exists because of lyrics" fits that. And I think that's a harder one to argue against.

I din't vote because I'm not a consumer of pop music. I love a great pop song but it's Plank Scale close to 100% crapola IMO. I was in a cafe today and made somewhat physically ill subjected to too much/too soon. The joint started with White Album by Beatles which has a couple, three good numbers (Happiness is a Warm Gun, Everybody Got Somethin to Hide Cept for Me and My Monkey, Dear Prudence) but it veered into music hell and stayed there til I had to leave.

[ozmoz2008]

The commercial music business exists because of lyrics. A good melody matters, but the words are the focus for most people most of the time. That's why they buy music. But, it's not why most kvr people make music.

I agree even if I do care about melodies and arrangements, most people will listen to lyrics and the artist talking before really listening to the tune. There is a lot of examples of people good at telling stories that are quite popular, or others that are very charming artist that also are very popular. They impact more the vast majority of pop songs listeners.

For songs, lyrics are quite important in that regards.(IMOE)

[Francisco Cepero]

Dreamy chords. That could be found on a lot of minimalist music, especially house.

[mistertoast]

My wife talks the whole time she's "listening" to music. I can't imagine she cares about the lyrics. She can't even get the words right in the chorus when she sings along. To me, she's a much more typical consumer than I am.

I could sit down in an empty room with only paper and pen and write hundreds of pages of lyrics I've heard. "In this room the heat pipes just cough."

[hibidy]

I'll tell ya one thing, when the lyrics are presentable I listen, when they are "willy-nilly" or blah, I couldn't care less.

But as musicians, especially here at kvr, isn't it natural to listen to "type of reverb" or "how's the mix" or "ooooo, I like how those instruments are panned" /etc????

[YUGA]

I'll tell ya one thing, when the lyrics are presentable I listen, when they are "willy-nilly" or blah, I couldn't care less.

But as musicians, especially here at kvr, isn't it natural to listen to "type of reverb" or "how's the mix" or "ooooo, I like how those instruments are panned" /etc????

I try NOT to be analytic and listen to music as a whole. Only when I wonder "wow! how they do it?", I analyze the music and say "oh this sound is probably a sawtooth and detuned sine with BPF@800Hz" or "Maybe tempo synched delay with automated feedback" etc. I think it's vitally important for producers to be able to be not too analytic, otherwise you never know how normal listeners perceive music and so you can't create music for normal people.

[ariston]

Singing is a trick to get people to listen to music for longer than they ordinarily would." - David Byrne

I've been playing an instrument for 32 years, and composing for 22. I developed two certain types of "listening modes" for myself (although I couldn't tell you how I actually did that):
In one, I will analyze every little tremolo and ostinato, every word and vocal nuance, every chord structure and so on.
In the other one, I just turn that shit off and LISTEN. It's kind of like forgetting all you know, and experiencing something for the first time, without having the conscious knowledge of what it is that you're experiencing. Basic Zen, actually.

Mode two can be difficult to attain, especially when faced with the Britneys, Justins, and Kroegers of the world. A dumb lyric will faze me every time, making it impossible for me to enjoy the song.

I agree with a previous poster that musicians and "consumers" experience music differently. I remember a study that claimed that every purchased CD got listened to (on average!) 1.2 times. For most people, music is something that is part of the background in their lives, like their couch, or their coffee machine.

I love songs when the lyrics and the melody make a connection, when the music tugs at my heart strings AND ignites a little fire in my brain, and when there are little intriguing details that make the song unique.