KVR Audio

adl · Post by **adl** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:54 pm

Am i the only one who can't move any knob in Live 8.0.8 on XP SP3?

The gui just doesn't respond at all.

shogger · Post by **shogger** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:44 pm

Agreed wrote:It's pretty easy to demonstrate ...

Now run some material through it. Ugh, what's all that ringing sound?

Until here it was somehow ok. Make a real life test, good! I did that. And then you wrote this:

Agreed wrote:Linear phase corrects the phase issues and allows you to adjust EQ without worrying about undesired and often quite nasty sounding phase discrepancies.

I don't know if the "phase discrepancies" are the evil in non-linear phase eqs. But I did make a test with a linear phase eq, too. Here is the comparative result of both tests. So you tell me, please: Which version do you prefer and why?

Drums with dehumming EQs.wav

Shogger

Nokenoku · Post by **Nokenoku** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:35 pm

meloco_go wrote:
bootsie wrote:would a dry/wet knob do the trick?
Of course it is a useful feature, but, obviously if you combined IIR-AA filtered signal with the original you would have some ripple in the high-end.
FIR linear-phase AA filter is the only way around this AFAIK (or compensating for phase shift from IIR filter somehow).

Agreed wrote:It's pretty easy to demonstrate how phase becomes a problem with simple filters. Get your favorite multi-band parametric EQ with unlimited bands (ReaEQ in the free REAPER plugins pack is a good one to demonstrate this, because it allows you to view directly the phase relationship as well as the frequency shaping). Now pretend you've got some wicked bad AC hum and you've just gotta kill it. Make incredibly narrow cuts at 60hz and every one of its harmonics at least into the 600hz area, and make them deep. -24dB minimum, go deeper if you want to really make it apparent.

Now run some material through it. Ugh, what's all that ringing sound? What the hell is it doing to mangle the sound so badly?

Have it show the phase and notice how at each of those cuts, though they were very narrow and should only have surgically taken out the pure AC noise without leaving the more harmonically complex content of actual music less molested (relative, here, you know), the phase is just totally skewed from the filters.

Linear phase corrects the phase issues and allows you to adjust EQ without worrying about undesired and often quite nasty sounding phase discrepancies.

Your funny experiment sounds with linear phase EQing at least as shitty as with normal filters.

And using a mix-knob on phasing EQs causes absolutely no issues.

OnTopic:
Have to check that out. Love TesslaPRO and NastyLF. And now Bootsy added another saturation tool.

Agreed · Post by **Agreed** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:01 pm

Haha, I only meant that to demonstrate ringing. It was the first time I ever noticed it and thought "what the hell is that sound?" It was on an isolated guitar track and it sounded just... wrong. But then I replicated the cuts with a linear phase EQ and all of a sudden it didn't sound so wrong. Still sounded BAD, but not weird, ring-mod like almost on the attack like it had before.

I ended up completely abandoning that line of hum removal as a concept because no matter how narrow the cuts, removing all that harmonic content just screws with the sound big time.

Really I had hoped you would get ReaEQ for it so you could actually see the phase jump out like crazy in response to the steep cuts.

Nokenoku · Post by **Nokenoku** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:16 pm

Agreed wrote:Haha, I only meant that to demonstrate ringing. It was the first time I ever noticed it and thought "what the hell is that sound?" It was on an isolated guitar track and it sounded just... wrong. But then I replicated the cuts with a linear phase EQ and all of a sudden it didn't sound so wrong. Still sounded BAD, but not weird, ring-mod like almost on the attack like it had before.

But a linear phase EQ sadly doesn't ring less than a minimum phase one. It just splits the ringing in pre- and after-ringing. And pre-ringing tends to sounds weird as well.

It might be possible, that for your certain case it sounded better. But this is not always the case, and it doesn't have anything to do with phasing.

michat · Post by **michat** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:59 pm

If it does just half of what my old Sony tape does it must be great!
And the best thing is: I got much free time next week to play with this!

Can't waaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiit!!!!!!!!!!!!1

meloco_go · Post by **meloco_go** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:30 pm

Nokenoku wrote:And using a mix-knob on phasing EQs causes absolutely no issues.

That depends on the amount of phase-shift which itself depends on filter order. If you are using simple EQ in parallel this is not a problem as phase-shift is small, but AA-filters are of high-order and cause a lot of phase shifting.
Here's an example
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6e7b ... f6e8ebb871

Drum track with ferric in parallel with original track. In "compensated" track I applied ferric on reversed file first, than reversed it again put ferric again so AA-filter is phase-compensated, on uncompensated track I simply used ferric on a parallel track. Listen how cymbals sound.

shogger · Post by **shogger** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:38 pm

FerricTDS is great as a de-esser. Is it that I'm so used to the tape sound that this plugin sounds so "normal" to me? It can make things sound just "right". Using it to extremes can give things like distorted guitars some interesting flavour.

Thanx again, Bootsie! This is marvelous.

Shogger

xybre · Post by **xybre** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:57 pm

shogger wrote:So you tell me, please: Which version do you prefer and why?

Drums with dehumming EQs.wav

(I know this wasn't said to me, but it was interesting)
That first one is kinda funky, I almost like it for special use. But obviously the second one is cleaner and better in general.

How did you get that result in the first clip? And what did you do to avoid it in the second?

Sorry to derail Bootsy, I really dig your plugs! Especially Nasty LF, but I also use your EQ and RescueAE. I've downloaded your DC plug, and I'll give it a good try soon!

Agreed · Post by **Agreed** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:10 pm

Nokenoku wrote:
Agreed wrote:Haha, I only meant that to demonstrate ringing. It was the first time I ever noticed it and thought "what the hell is that sound?" It was on an isolated guitar track and it sounded just... wrong. But then I replicated the cuts with a linear phase EQ and all of a sudden it didn't sound so wrong. Still sounded BAD, but not weird, ring-mod like almost on the attack like it had before.
But a linear phase EQ sadly doesn't ring less than a minimum phase one. It just splits the ringing in pre- and after-ringing. And pre-ringing tends to sounds weird as well.

It might be possible, that for your certain case it sounded better. But this is not always the case, and it doesn't have anything to do with phasing.

I submit that it's entirely possible that you are correct, amigo. It didn't even really sound good, it just didn't sound smeared. The problem was that approach to reducing hum was basically a bankrupt idea, as far as that goes. However I only intended to give an easily replicated example of non-linear-phase versus linear-phase, or to visually illustrate it with the ReaEQ I suggested; I think there has been a bit of a misunderstanding, my fault because I wasn't clear enough in the first post I made. I never meant to imply that it sounded good with the linear phase EQ, only that a peculiar "smearing" quality of the attack was present with the non-Linear Phase that was not there with the Linear Phase. It still sounded ugly and mangled, and I ended up moving my computer instead so I'd reduce the source of the noise rather than have to try to carve it up with poor results...

Anyway, I suppose I should apologize if I have misled anyone, I never intended to do so!

adl · Post by **adl** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:56 pm

adl wrote:Am i the only one who can't move any knob in Live 8.0.8 on XP SP3?
The gui just doesn't respond at all.

Weird, now i works...gone try it now.

lagavulin16 · Post by **lagavulin16** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:10 pm

I just wish he made AU versions!

kobal · Post by **kobal** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:12 am

these plugs are so amazing sell your mac and get a pc lol,i m even wondering what the point of buying some plugs with some freeware that sound as good,the booteq ,tesla pro and this one are some of my favorite plugs for coloring the signal

lmnop · Post by **lmnop** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:20 am

Hey Bootsy, when I try to insert onto a track in Cubase SX3 ferric shuts down cubase. I'm on an AMD athlon x2 4800+, XP sp2. It opens fine in Wavelab 5 though. Any idea why? I should be SSE2.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:17 am

shogger wrote:FerricTDS is great as a de-esser. Is it that I'm so used to the tape sound that this plugin sounds so "normal" to me? It can make things sound just "right". Using it to extremes can give things like distorted guitars some interesting flavour.

I completely agree. This is a marvelous tape emulation. I'm liking very much for exactly the reason you said. Everything just seems to benefit from this, even in subtle doses.

Cheers!
bManic

OMG, bootsie has an entry in the DC'09!