Change of scale during song

[jancivil]

I've opened up a can of worms!

I spelled F dim like that because it was in the context of the A harmonic minor.
The correct spelling may reflect the formula 1 b3 b5, but that just seems a constraint to me when the scales don't have that spelling(hmm where can I find a scale with a Cb?) So how does spelling it F Ab Cb help us in knowing where it can be used as a pivot chord? Why not let it enharmonically suite the keys you are in?



F melodic minor? what chords in the song come from this scale?

There may be no chords from that scale, but, it's *you* who are referring to that scale, with that spelling. You can choose to call it incorrectly if you like, no es problemas, but that's what's the deal you're dealing in.

....

The spelling F Ab Cb is the naturally occurring ii chord in Eb minor.

If you put that structure over the V chord in Eb minor (or major: the thing is, 'mixing mode' as it's called in harmony class in 'common practice period', isn't new or unusual, is 'common practice' in classical, baroque music etc), you have a Bb7 b9 implication. So, we have a pivot chord from our C major/A minor area (D F Ab Cb = G# B D F) to some flat key areas, such as Eb, indicated easily enough from knowing the spelling...

We've gone to 180° around the circle to Gb, as F Ab Cb is the vii chord (or the full dominant 7, Db F Ab Cb) of that key (the relative major of Ebm).

So, perhaps you can see it's anything but a constraint, it should open up your understanding.

There's nothing wrong per se with 'enharmonic' usage, but in terms of communicating the idea to another musician, that isn't an F°. The usage you have is an incomplete G#°7, which occurs in the *A minor* scale (What you called it, occurs in another scale, which you appear to realize. THIS is the reason for spelling.).

G# B D F. vii°7.
or, you can think of it as: vii°7 in C minor: B D F Ab

[FarleyCZ]

Iteresting. Friend did this order:
D F A
D F# A
D F# B
(Of course i mean it like on kyboard, so with all that enharmonical things ...)
He used middle note like a bassline.
Rest of notes belong to C major (no black keys).

http://adamsonmusic.ic.cz/ooo.mp3 ... there it is how it sounds. It fits together. Interesting little example of ... something ... but what?

So now. I doubt there is some pivot chord. (is the pivot chord just chord with notes belongin to two different scales at one time?)
This is really like quick jump. So what kind of modulation could be this one? I heard something about applied dominant from different scale ... but i I'm not exactly shure what's dominant mean and how it could work. (If anyone is able to explain me what that dominant is, I'll be happy. ) ... or some other modulation technique?

Or he just shot in some good sounding intervals in that second? Like borrow a note from other scale. Is that even possible?

[Sepheritoh]

In the video, its actually F dim (G# B F) thats played at the begining cause F is in the melody, and later it substitutes it with a G# dim. Any triad with G# note, including E, in A harmonic minor will do depending on the melody at that point.

just to clarify for the whole class: F diminished is a triad consisting of minor *thirds*, with F as the root.
F to G, whether the G is a sharp, a flat, or not modified, is a *second*.

F.
Ab.
Cb.

two minor thirds adds up to a diminished fifth, here: F to Cb.

F to B is an augmented fourth.
"G# B F", isn't really an F diminished; however:
G# B D F is a G# diminished seventh, four minor thirds. That is the vii7 chord in A (harmonic) minor, aka <vii7 of vi>, a secondary dominant in C major.

as you see there, diminished chords are imminently interchangeable, of course, but it's not the best idea to be unclear on spelling if one is going to pursue a real understanding of the function of them.

for instance, a for real F diminished can pivot you to some other keys which will be clear to someone who sees it's real spelling.

Damn. Are we supposed to understand all that if we want to pass this year?

[Gamma-UT]

Iteresting. Friend did this order:
D F A
D F# A
D F# B
(Of course i mean it like on kyboard, so with all that enharmonical things ...)
He used middle note like a bassline.
Rest of notes belong to C major (no black keys).

http://adamsonmusic.ic.cz/ooo.mp3 ... there it is how it sounds. It fits together. Interesting little example of ... something ... but what?

So now. I doubt there is some pivot chord. (is the pivot chord just chord with notes belongin to two different scales at one time?)
This is really like quick jump. So what kind of modulation could be this one? I heard something about applied dominant from different scale ... but i I'm not exactly shure what's dominant mean and how it could work. (If anyone is able to explain me what that dominant is, I'll be happy. ) ... or some other modulation technique?

Or he just shot in some good sounding intervals in that second? Like borrow a note from other scale. Is that even possible?

Secondary dominant. D is the dominant note in the Gmaj key (it's a fifth, or seven semitones up from the root G) in the same way that G is the dominant in the CMaj key. But a chord built on D in CMaj has to be a minor chord. By using the secondary dominant trick, you can introduce Dmaj as a chord. Typically, a secondary dominant resolves to a chord built on the root of the borrowed scale - which is the G in this case. However, he plays a G7 without the G in it. So, if you use the Roman numeral notation it goes ii-V/V-V7. This stuff is easy to work out if you learn the relationship between keys and the chords in them using the Roman numbering thing - it's a handy tool to have as it makes explaining and understanding this stuff a whole lot easier than identifying every note on every scale by name.

[FarleyCZ]

Secondary dominant. D is the dominant note in the Gmaj key (it's a fifth, or seven semitones up from the root G) in the same way that G is the dominant in the CMaj key. But a chord built on D in CMaj has to be a minor chord. By using the secondary dominant trick, you can introduce Dmaj as a chord. Typically, a secondary dominant resolves to a chord built on the root of the borrowed scale - which is the G in this case. However, he plays a G7 without the G in it. So, if you use the Roman numeral notation it goes ii-V/V-V7. This stuff is easy to work out if you learn the relationship between keys and the chords in them using the Roman numbering thing - it's a handy tool to have as it makes explaining and understanding this stuff a whole lot easier than identifying every note on every scale by name.

THX!!! This explains a lot! So if we use in one key dominant note of some other key as part of a chord, we can continue in or use elements from that second key?

(i remember some pictures with circle of fifths which shown me where was dominant notes in key ... problem is that for example harmonic minor keys do not fit to this circle so nicely, so there is hard to imagine an dominant, so it needs to be counted by that 5 or 7 semitones thing, am I right?)

Yes. That roman numbering chord creating ... I see it used a lot on this phorum. Could you recomend me some online sources to get to know more about it please?

[Gamma-UT]

Yes. That roman numbering chord creating ... I see it used a lot on this phorum. Could you recomend me some online sources to get to know more about it please?

http://musictheory.net/

Go to the Lessons drop down box - start either at the Scales section or the Chords one. The Roman numerals stuff is in the Chords section but it's probably worth having a look at the Scales stuff first.

[trewq]

we have all struggled at times with what the OP is asking about.

has anyone here ever considered using any software to help with scales and chords, or has this just invited skepticism in the past? Music teachers probably hate the whole idea...

I just notice that there has been no mention of it, but IMO (and I'm a pro despite the kind of responses I get from some here), its a good assist.

edit:
I don't mean to overide anyone's suggestions/instruction here, its no substitute for knowlege, otherwise you will limit yourself no mater what, it just does some of the work for you, so its like 'less work/more play'. Unless you just fiddle, then its all play

[jancivil]

In the video, its actually F dim (G# B F) thats played at the begining cause F is in the melody, and later it substitutes it with a G# dim. Any triad with G# note, including E, in A harmonic minor will do depending on the melody at that point.

just to clarify for the whole class: F diminished is a triad consisting of minor *thirds*, with F as the root.
F to G, whether the G is a sharp, a flat, or not modified, is a *second*.

F.
Ab.
Cb.

two minor thirds adds up to a diminished fifth, here: F to Cb.

F to B is an augmented fourth.
"G# B F", isn't really an F diminished; however:
G# B D F is a G# diminished seventh, four minor thirds. That is the vii7 chord in A (harmonic) minor, aka <vii7 of vi>, a secondary dominant in C major.

as you see there, diminished chords are imminently interchangeable, of course, but it's not the best idea to be unclear on spelling if one is going to pursue a real understanding of the function of them.

for instance, a for real F diminished can pivot you to some other keys which will be clear to someone who sees its real spelling.

Damn. Are we supposed to understand all that if we want to pass this year?

That's if you wanna pass 'intro' so you have met the prerequisite for first year harmony.