Heresy alert: You left REAPER and went to...

[Astromann]

In fact Steinberg have been quite consistent over the years, and while they have certainly added a ton of features to their product line over the last quarter century, their overall goals seem fairly similar so far as I can tell.

Actually when it comes to midi implementation Cubase had some of the worst and clumsiest VSTi midi I have ever seen (even though they founded VST), they only fixed this recently in Cubase 5.
What I am talking about was you had to have a separate track for midi and another separate track for your VSTi (LOL!!), this ended up in an absolute mess in more complex arrangements.
I can tell you many serious arrangers (apart from Hans Zimmerman) laughed their arses off at this midi approach from Steinberg for many years.
Logic at least on the other hand had a unified approach (1 track for VSTi and the same for the midi notes)...and they had this way back for many years, it took Steinberg F$$$##!!G years to implement this...this is a major workflow feature and I dont call them taking so many years to fix this any kind of vision or dedication at all.

Reaper at least has this approach right now and appears to have had it for some time...and coming from Logic I dont have any big issues with the midi in it....so to each to their own.
But please dont hold Steinberg up as a beacon of vision...they have produced some really badly laid out software in the past, some of the SX series was a royal pain to work with in some areas and very cluttered and awkward.
And if we track it back to the Pro 16 days...its a totally different app in every respect than it is now, and their vision was very different, as was CLabs creator (Logics) vison different, there was no singular vision that is still existing today as is being implied here, and I was using them both back then...so I have some idea.
I find the point that is trying to be established as pretty silly, all these apps adapt more or less to market demands.
Jeez Cubase got Audio warp, Logic got flex time...internal vision for the developers?...I doubt it, market push from the outside?..almost definitely.

Now maybe I will find issues with Reaper in the future who knows, but right now it works fine for me and I am running Kontakt 4, Omnisphere and a good deal of the Play stuff on it and have given the midi a good thrashing so far.
Its highly customizable and Justin seems to have a vision for the future...that is you can create your own look, workflow and menus. modify toolbars etc...and I hope he keeps developing it in this area!
But dont worry Steinberg and Logic will have that in a few years and everyone will applaud them as visionary software companies LOL!!

[bullshark]

Speculative or not, I think your post was rather offensive towards the developers at Ableton/Propellerhead.

And calling Justin an uncommitted airhead with no vision smelled of flower all over I suppose.

You're quite a piece of work.

[headquest]

But please dont hold Steinberg up as a beacon of vision...they have produced some really badly laid out software in the past, some of the SX series was a royal pain to work with in some areas.

I completely agree, and think you maybe missed my intended point. Probably the word "vision" is the problem... "focus" would be a more suitable word for what I am saying. Steinberg have maintained a certain "focus" in their product development, which is not to say their products were consistently good. But where the developer(s) have focus then the product will hopefully reflect that... I think where the key developer is being led by FR demands then the focus can drift, which is the point somebody else made about REAPER, to which I was responding.
Anyway, it's great that REAPER works so well for so many

[headquest]

Speculative or not, I think your post was rather offensive towards the developers at Ableton/Propellerhead.

And calling Justin an uncommitted airhead with no vision smelled of flower all over I suppose.

You're quite a piece of work.

See, this is the sort of agressive stuff that causes trouble. WTF are you on??? I never called Justin an uncommitted airhead, or the other stuff... perhaps you find it easier to fabricate crap about me instead of owning that you fabricated crap about Ableton and Propellerhead. Way to go...

[hibidy]

I left reaper and went to celibasy

[Astromann]

I completely agree, and think you maybe missed my intended point. Probably the word "vision" is the problem... "focus" would be a more suitable word for what I am saying. Steinberg have maintained a certain "focus" in their product development, which is not to say their products were consistently good.

Hi Headquest, Yeah I would agree with that...I probably misunderstood you a little on that point....sorry about that.

With REAPER though it certainly seems that the MIDI implementation in particular is something that has somewhat been led by the community. Some would say that's fine, but I personally think that there are now a huge number of great features but without the same sense of integration that you find in some other software. But each to their own, and it's great that it works so well for so many

Yes I can see your point here...and its been made many times by many people...clumsy integration, too many actions, punished by nested menus etc..
However I think Justin does have a vision..and that is user definable.

Daz Studio has it http://www.daz3d.com/i/software/daz_studio3?_m=d
(its a 3d rendering app and it is very successful) but it has become very much configurable by the user (more so than Reaper) and it is gaining in popularity very fast...the base program is free, but the add ons are not.
They are now one of the richest sites on the net.
It started out as a crappy little app then it gradually went in the direction where Reaper appears to be heading (vastly user configurable) when people get the idea it opens up a lot of new areas in creativity.
As great as Cubases and Logics current workflow is...it cant compete with this, because you get to more or less design your own workflow (not just skin)

All Justin has to do is implement the features in Reaper without bugs and increase the flexibility of the users control bit by bit and thats what he appears to be doing.
An example is the ability to not just add up to 24 buttons with user defined actions to the current toolbar.
But if in the near future you could create your own toolbars with the user defining the buttons actions then all this talk about having to remember too may key commands and too many right click options, clumsy workflow etc... will become irrelevant very quickly.
Now once you bring more powerful screensets with users defined menus and toolbars in them...then we see the possible future of Reaper.
You could have a midi editing room with the midi editor and custom toolbars to do related tasks, a tracking room (screenset or tab)with related tools etc...a mixdown room and so on, very easily implemented, and Reaper is not too far away from that.
I am pretty sure this is where they are headed, I could be wrong but the signs are very promising.

[bullshark]

See, this is the sort of agressive stuff that causes trouble. WTF are you on??? I never called Justin an uncommitted airhead, or the other stuff... perhaps you find it easier to fabricate crap about me instead of owning that you fabricated crap about Ableton and Propellerhead. Way to go...

That comes out of the community ethos that REAPER had from the start. At the time everyone who was into it raved about how responsive the developer was, etc.

One reason I had some doubts is that I've been on a few committees in my time, and "too many cooks" really do "spoil the broth" as the saying goes. Although not without fault, it's better imho where you have a small team of developers with real clarity of vision and originality - e.g. Ableton or Propellerhead - and users who choose to buy into the vision or not. That way there's a chance that the product will devlop with coherence and consistency.

With REAPER it was clear from the beginning that Justin had a fairly specific intention when he started out on it, that the growing community had a gazillion alternative visions, and that the community would prevail to a point where REAPER would become bloated and quite hard to use. but for some time now I'm guessing he devotes all his time to servicing the requests of the community.

and it gets better..

The difference with a one-man-developer like Justin - and Tracktion's Jules before him - is that if they lose the vision the main option is to either just abandon the product or sell the code to somebody else...

So, he's without clarity, vision and originality, ruled by the community and release a bloated, hard to use product. Oh, and that product will disappear shortly.

In not so many words, an uncommitted airhead with no vision. But that's ok, because you are...you, right?

It never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, he can distill the info and suggestion he gets on the forum, add his own idea and vision, and release a product that pleases thousands of users?

Like I said, you're quite a piece of work, your mama must be proud.

[headquest]

@ Astromann - thanks for that. I see your point about the vision to make REAPER fully user definable. For those that are into that thing (tweaking, customisation, etc) it would be very cool, and maybe the earlier poster who speculated REAPER may one day be open source was onto something....

I'm more into the straight music side, not coding or refining the programme, so for me it is better to stick to something where ease-of-use takes prioity over customisation, but there's lots of room for both!

Regarding other points being raised, Justin is quite obviously a brilliant, committed and very generous developer. His acheivements speak for themselves, and so there is no need to portray all the other music software developers as "the bad guys". Justin is hugely respected by me, and by many here, but there are some other developers who deserve some respect too

[headquest]

So, he's without clarity, vision and originality, ruled by the community and release a bloated, hard to use product. Oh, and that product will disappear shortly.

That's a classic case of 2 + 2 = 17.

In not so many words

Not in my words at all!

It never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, he can distill the info and suggestion he gets on the forum, add his own idea and vision, and release a product that pleases thousands of users?

Obviously not Just like it never occurred to you that Ableton and Propellerhead care about music software

[xybre]

That's a classic case of 2 + 2 = 17.

Dude.. Wait.. What? It doesn't? Whoooaaaaa

[hibidy]

That's a classic case of 2 + 2 = 17.

Dude.. Wait.. What? It doesn't? Whoooaaaaa

made sense to me

[Astromann]

It's better imho where you have a small team of developers with real clarity of vision and originality - e.g. Ableton or Propellerhead - and users who choose to buy into the vision or not. That way there's a chance that the product will devlop with coherence and consistency.

Yes that is OK for those that want to work to the manufacturers vision!!
But that is not the only way...and IMO is not the way forward.
You appear to think Justin is lost and wading according to the tide of users opinions...maybe thats true...I cant say with certainty.
But it appears to me that he has a solid vision...that is put the power of workflow design and ergonomics into the hands of the user, IMO (obviously not some others) that is the way forward.
Its already starting to happen in the 3d world...most DAW's users are a little conditioned to the idea that the manufacturer designs the workflow, actions etc and they tend to make all their judgements based on that premise.
Now Justin (albeit a little clumsily) is not appearing to go the Steingberg, Prpellerhead, Apple route...rather he appears to be going more in the direction of giving the power of workflow creation to the user...and kudo's to him for that because if he can achieve it, he will have a DAW that will be awesome!!

Now there will always be those that like to work to the manufacturers vision and ergonomics...thats cool, but just because someone (Justin) appears to be going in another direction does not necessarily mean they have lost direction.
There is another way forward...as explained above.
Cheers

[Astromann]

His acheivements speak for themselves, and so there is no need to portray all the other music software developers as "the bad guys". Justin is hugely respected by me, and by many here, but there are some other developers who deserve some respect too

Hi Headquest...you are correct I was a little harsh on the Steinbergs and Apples of this world...actually both are awesome apps these days.
Its just that sometimes it appears that to some (not yourself) it seems that it's fair game to bash Reaper and Justin while lauding other apps as beacons of stability, vision etc..
As a very long time Logic use I find that a little bit biased...so I had a bit of a rant..most of it harmless I hope.
Cheers

[headquest]

You appear to think Justin is lost and wading according to the tide of users opinions...maybe thats true...I cant say with certainty.

Not "lost", but perhaps "wading" a little. But my perception may be way off, in which case I'm sorry for any unintentional offense. As I said, it's a personal concern of mine with anything open-source or perhaps too-heavily influenced by user ideas that it can turn into a bit of a jungle that is inhospitable for the newcomer. I'm not saying REAPER is in that position, or even that it will be... but I have seen others state that it is.

But it appears to me that he has a solid vision...that is put the power of workflow design and ergonomics into the hands of the user, IMO (obviously not some others) that is the way forward.

As a current REAPER user I'm sure you are more in touch with where things are at. I think that your enthusiasm is infectious, and I'm glad you shared your perspective, which has helped me better understand where REAPER is headed I think. I do think that Cubase, SONAR and others actually offer quite a lot of user customisation FWIW, but it will be interesting to see how far Justin takes this vision for REAPER.

Now there will always be those that like to work to the manufacturers vision and ergonomics...thats cool

Definitely I'm in that camp. I look at it a bit differently. I am a trained musician, but I am not trained in design, for example, so its better that somebody who can do that well is left to get on with it. Actually I'm rubbish at loads of stuff... I try to concentrate on what I can do well and let others play to their strengths. I have used a variety of music software, including REAPER, and in most cases I found the design others had done inspired creativity in me as a musician - for example the way things are laid out on the screen can lead you in a certain direction with a project. And I'm happy to be led in that sense.

Cheers

[koolkeys]

Do I think Justin has a vision of what he wants Reaper to be? Definitely. Does it necessarily end up that way? I have no idea. Only Justin and his fellow coders know that.

But here's the thing. People make it out to be so bad that people adapt to a workflow of a company like Steinberg, pretending that it's somehow worse than something like Reaper. But that's just a silly thing to say as a general rule. Sometimes, and this is something I personally have experienced, the workflow for an app just fits. It's right.

Cubase may not get the most updates in the world. But things are consistent. It's refined.
On the other hand, Reaper gets more updates than most, if not all hosts. But IMO, this is also a curse. Often it seems(to me) as if things are thrown on top without too much thought. No, I'm not saying that the devs don't think about it. But I just think that Reaper sometimes lacks the refinement in many areas that an app like Cubase has(IMO).

To be honest, if Cockos would take a couple of months and add ZERO new features, and ONLY spend that time cleaning things up and making little changes to what is already there, it would be a superb app and would be more attractive to a LOT more people.

Reaper brings mixed thoughts from me. On one hand, I see it's scripting and flexibility with configuration of key commands and buttons, and I think "hey, that rocks!". On the other hand, no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't feel right. I always feel like I'm fighting the program. I do keep following what the developments are, but the more I wait for the refinement to come, the more it doesn't. Instead, more features are added on. That's great, but not if it means that current features are just left there to rot.

One thing I have noticed, and I think it's one problem with Reaper(again, IMO) is that it really doesn't HAVE a "workflow". Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can customize this and customize that. But to me, Reaper isn't as coherent and unified as some other apps. Heck, even the MIDI editor is just an extension and not part of the core code.

Part of the reason for this "collage" that is Reaper may be due to the fact that so many feature requests have been made from so many other apps and implemented so quickly, that Reaper becomes a mix of this workflow and that workflow, but in the end, fails to really make an identity for itself. Yes, it's flexible, but that's gonna turn some people off.

So this may be along the lines of a "vision" or "focus", or whatever term you want to use for it. Reaper doesn't need the advanced features it's missing. It needs to improve what is there, IMO. Then, I have no doubts that the success of Reaper will increase in large amounts.

All just IMO, my observation, and my genuine thinking.

Brent