"Best" DAW for surround?

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Hi Urs,

since I guess you know almost every DAW and audio app available, can you make a suggestion what tool works without much hassle for surround projects, where the main focus is on realtime audio, instruments and effects (like Zebra and Uhbik).

Normally my tool of choice is Ableton Live, I love it's clarity and design, but for surround it looks pretty poor.

Mac or PC doesn't matter too much, not too pricey would be a bonus.

I currently don't do "standard" surround, so it would be cool if the outputs would be easy to set up in a custom way...

Thanks a lot!

Thomas Helzle
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ThomasHelzle wrote:Hi Urs,

since I guess you know almost every DAW and audio app available, can you make a suggestion what tool works without much hassle for surround projects, where the main focus is on realtime audio, instruments and effects (like Zebra and Uhbik).

Normally my tool of choice is Ableton Live, I love it's clarity and design, but for surround it looks pretty poor.

Mac or PC doesn't matter too much, not too pricey would be a bonus.

I currently don't do "standard" surround, so it would be cool if the outputs would be easy to set up in a custom way...

Thanks a lot!

Thomas Helzle
i work with cubase 5 & Nuendo 4..Nuendo just for Surround..

but don't do alot these days, just wanna get something done good in stereo , then maybe remix in 5.1

but even in Cubase i feel not limited with surround..

actualy didn't try other DAW's.. :roll:

hope that helps a little..

cheers
JamWide - a cross-platform Ninjam client for DAWs
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Well, if you do not need to configure your surround setup but use standard setups - Mac native Digital Performer IMHO ....

If you need to configure you surround setup (means set the angles to your needs) - I think Nuendo can do that.

Another option for Live users might be rewire to Bidule (or Max/MSP) and use surround stuff in Bidule (there are a few modules to do that - but maybe a bit more experimental than using one of the big DAWs)

Well, for custom way - maybe really only Nuendo or Bidule/Max/MSP.

Hope that helps

best
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Thanks guys,

in my testing so far, only Bidule seems to be really flexible with surround, no matter what kind of setup you have, but on the other side, you are pretty much building everything from scratch.
Have to play with the demo some more...

Max for Live is restricted to the same limits as Live itself as far as I can see, so I can't use surround enabled VST effects like Uhbik with it AFAIK?

How is Logic in that regard? Flexible?

Well, keep those ideas coming if there is a really good, flexible and hopefully not too expensive solution out there I'm all ears... ;-)

Thank you!

Thomas Helzle
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i've used nuendo, samp (pro), dp, and logic studio to deal with varying degrees of surround for projects. nuendo would be your go-to for non-standard surround configs, imo.
that said, i'd probably go for logic studio, as you get the surround support (the standard dolby stuff), and the encoding tools to create the actual dolby audio files to burn to disc. the pricing kills any other contenders WITHOUT the encoding. most encoders alone cost what it does. i'd do a search, though, and make sure said encoding works well enough to consider.

on the cheap, from what i understand, zynewave's podium likewise has surround support, and pretty good support for multichannel media files (up to 32channel wav/aiff!).

kell
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Thanks Kelldammit,

podium is indeed pretty cool, although a bit twisted at the same time ;-)
Brilliant sound quality though.
I couldn't get it to do surround with my Firebox so far, but it is definitely one of the more interesting tools around.

I now also discovered Audiomulch which I somehow like a lot, but it seems it has a bit too little nerdy configuration options where Max/MSP has too many.

But the more I dig around, the more tools I find - unbelievable how many hosts there are.

This is an interesting site for surround:
http://acousmodules.free.fr/hosts.htm
Also a lot of Surround VSTs on the site...

Well, I guess I have to wander around a lot more and see what I can find. If I should stumble upon something especially cool, I'll report back :-)

Cheers and thanks for the tips,

Thomas
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ThomasHelzle wrote:Thanks guys,

in my testing so far, only Bidule seems to be really flexible with surround, no matter what kind of setup you have, but on the other side, you are pretty much building everything from scratch.
Have to play with the demo some more...

Max for Live is restricted to the same limits as Live itself as far as I can see, so I can't use surround enabled VST effects like Uhbik with it AFAIK?

How is Logic in that regard? Flexible?

Well, keep those ideas coming if there is a really good, flexible and hopefully not too expensive solution out there I'm all ears... ;-)

Thank you!

Thomas Helzle
No, not Max for live but Max/MSP ... there's a difference and I swear, it is as flexible as Bidule :)

Logic has fixed setups up to 7.1 .... Those DAWs are designed for the standard boring film stuff ... not for musicians .... If you want to be flexible (at least on Mac), there is no way around Max/MSP or Bidule IMHO. (or PD of course)

hope that helps

best
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Hi Thomas,

I've done all my surround productions with cubase4. For my opinion it's very easy to handle.

But you're looking for a custom way to use surround and you're familar with Ableton Live ... and it's possible on one way with Live:
Ableton can run as an Rewire Application and you can use it parallel with every DAW that can handle Surround and Rewire.

For example a setup with Cubase:

Start Cubase -> then start Live
now Live must be running in Rewire Mode

config Cubase:
Create 6 Rewire Channels in Cubase and route them to your 6 or more speakers.

config Live:
create 6 Return Channels in Live and route them to your 6 Cubase channels
Send01 = LeftFront; Send02 = RightFront; Send03 = Mid; Send 04 = LeftRear; Send05 = RightRear; Send06 = Subwoofer

With this Setup you are able to send every channel from Ableton Live over your SENDS to every speaker of your setup.


Maybe it's a good choice not to complex projects. If you'll have more than 80 Tracks in Ableton I think it'll get very confusing. The one and only disadvantage is, you can't use VST's or AU's if Ableton Live is running in Rewire Mode, only the internal FX.

Greets Tim
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... aaahhhh forgot, you can use VST or AU Plugins in Cubase .... So, if you need them it should work on this way.
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liquid_noise wrote:... aaahhhh forgot, you can use VST or AU Plugins in Cubase .... So, if you need them it should work on this way.
all of the hosts mentioned support end to end surround (meaning plugs/vi's, etc). i didn't mention any others (like reaper, for instance) that don't offer this "true" support without workarounds. it's kind of surprising that vi's go to the trouble of offering surround support (usually 5.1).
back when i ended up going from cubase to nuendo (many moons ago), one of the reasons was that cubase didn't and wasn't going to support surround. it was a "post" feature, not really a music production one, so it was one of the key selling points for nuendo. i'm happy the borg came around, and gave that to cubase users after all :)
ThomasHelzle wrote: podium is indeed pretty cool, although a bit twisted at the same time
Brilliant sound quality though.
I couldn't get it to do surround with my Firebox so far, but it is definitely one of the more interesting tools around.
i hope you get the configuration stuff sussed out...have you hit their forums? the dev is usually pretty quick to help out.
i've demoed podium a bunch of times, but being an "old school daw guy", and being somewhat set in my ways, i found it pretty strange. it's definitely cool enough to keep me coming back and trying it. i'm gonna just break down and buy a license though. i really like to support those kinds of products/developers. metro on mac is another one. very cool little program, that, and it was the first to offer UB afaik. that's why i bought it :)

kell
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Steff: I'm aware of that difference between Max and M4L, but M4L would integrate into my existing DAW where Max does not. ;-)
Too bad Live is so unflexible in that regard - Max isn't what I'm looking for.

One core problem seems to be, that the Firebox doesn't show up as a surround audio card but as 4 stereo outputs. A lot of hosts just look at what the system/driver tells them and if it's not 5.1 or 7.1 they just ignore it and you are back to just stereo.

Max, Bidule and Audiomulch don't have that problem, because they simply show you output connections and you decide how you use them.
This is actually pretty funny, since it would be extremely easy for all those other multy-channel DAWs to just allow you to setup where each channel should go in the end...
Weird.

I also haven't found a way to use the Firebox for DVD surround. Stupid really.

kelldammit: Same here with supporting little developers.
That's what I like about Audiomulch as well, a musician writing his own software... Same as the roots of Ableton Live...

But so far I haven't found out if I can get Podium to deal with my Firebox - I checked the forums but didn't find the answer. Guess I have to ask.

Thanks and Cheers,

Thomas
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ThomasHelzle wrote:Steff: I'm aware of that difference between Max and M4L, but M4L would integrate into my existing DAW where Max does not. ;-)
Too bad Live is so unflexible in that regard - Max isn't what I'm looking for.

One core problem seems to be, that the Firebox doesn't show up as a surround audio card but as 4 stereo outputs. A lot of hosts just look at what the system/driver tells them and if it's not 5.1 or 7.1 they just ignore it and you are back to just stereo.
Well, maybe I am not understanding you correctly ... but in DP you are configuring your outputs, busses, etc via bundles - so of course you have to tell DP that you want to use stereo outs 1-3 as 5.1 surround out - but that is no problem. In Logic you tell it in the audio preferences ... In Cubase in the Audio or ASIO setup .... no that should not be the problem.

>>
This is actually pretty funny, since it would be extremely easy for all those other multy-channel DAWs to just allow you to setup where each channel should go in the end...
>>
For DP it is absolutely the case, for cubase sx3 it was about the case and in logic you can at least define the surround puts freely to the physical outputs of your hardware - pretty sure about that ...

Anyways, that will not allow you to get e.g. an 8.0 surround setup or a 5.1 pentagone setup (only the more film oriented 5.1 setups are possible).

best
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Hi Steff3,

Thanks for your reply.
For the moment I went with Podium, since it is pretty flexible and affordable.
It's inner workings need some time to get used to, but it is a very good sounding tool with interesting options.

If Audiomulch would have had more basic nodes I may have bought it as well, I love it's realtime noodling approach.

Bidule is cool in principle, but I found the available nodes would need a better gui to make it really useful for me.

I also gave Reactor a try, since the standalone is very flexible in routing, but it doesn't support VSTs internally so it didn't help my needs and I didn't like the sound much anyway.

The tools at http://acousmodules.free.fr make life much easier, even if the DAW plays it a bit dumb on the surround side ... :-)

Thanks to all that replied, your ideas and insights were very helpful and inspiring! :-)

Cheers,

Thomas Helzle
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