Melody and Harmony

[garyewer09]

Actually, you bring up a good point, which is that all harmony is not necessarily triadic. And because of that, not all melodies will conjure up imagined harmony. I may have inadvertently implied that, but I was limiting the discussion to tonal melodies. So your point is very well taken, that there are melodies that will not imply structured (i.e, tonal or modal) harmony. If you hear a melody that does not use a tonal system, it's unlikely that those melodies will imply tonal harmonies.

Let's say you play the following notes linearly... A C# E (next 8ve) A C# E

...and so on.

You said I will always percieve this as melody, but in fact I actually perceive this as a triadic harmonic structure in spite of the fact that it's linear.

It is actually possible for arpeggiated chords to operate as melodies. For example, the American National Anthem begins as a triad that spans a 10th, but we have no problem hearing that arpeggiated triad as a melody.

(I'm also very much enjoying this discussion, and I don't read your comments as being "smart-ass or knitpicky". It's a really interesting discussion, and you make great points.)

-Gary

[Ogg Vorbis]

It is actually possible for arpeggiated chords to operate as melodies. For example, the American National Anthem begins as a triad that spans a 10th, but we have no problem hearing that arpeggiated triad as a melody.

-Gary

Yeah and that's an excellent thing to bring up too...that sometimes, especially when you're playing or singing something linearly, it's not purely one or the other. So in your example, the opening bars of the US national anthem outlines that strong triadic harmony.

The pickups are the fifth and the third of the tonic chord and then on the downbeat you've got the root. On the next downbeat, you've got the root again (up an octave).

Even if you only play the melody, there's really no harmonic ambiguity there..no question what the tonality is.

But the dotted rhythms and the rhythmic variability really contribute to the strong sense that you're listening to a melody, not some sort of accompaniment or "vamp," etc.

It seems that harmony and melody in this example are coexisting seemlessly. A neat division between harmony and melody isn't always so clear cut. I think this is nearly always the case, even in Steve Reich or some music where there's just two notes, like a minor third playing for several minutes.

I am starting to wonder if melody and harmony are like Yin and Yang...two aspects of the same thing and indivisible but sometimes manifest to strongly "be" one or the other. However, it's really tough to say, "THIS is what makes harmony "harmony" and THIS is the solid definition of "melody."

When originally posed, JMEIRE shot back a one-word answer..."perspective." I remember how momentarily satisfied I was when I read that reply. Still today it is both satisfying and disturbing...

[garyewer09]

I am starting to wonder if melody and harmony are like Yin and Yang...two aspects of the same thing and indivisible but sometimes manifest to strongly "be" one or the other.

And what makes that observation even more interesting is that historically, harmony (at least our "Westernized" concept of it) began over a thousand years ago as the simultaneous occurrence of two melodies. The idea of harmony as something used to accompany melody is a more modern concept.

-Gary

[Ogg Vorbis]

I am starting to wonder if melody and harmony are like Yin and Yang...two aspects of the same thing and indivisible but sometimes manifest to strongly "be" one or the other.

And what makes that observation even more interesting is that historically, harmony (at least our "Westernized" concept of it) began over a thousand years ago as the simultaneous occurrence of two melodies. The idea of harmony as something used to accompany melody is a more modern concept.

-Gary

Absolutely true...in organum you saw duplication of the melody at intervals followed by the gradual evolution of polyphony where the word "harmony" simply meant "consonant" or "agreeable."

In many world musics, the combination of voices is more horizontal in orientation and less regard is given to the almighty vertical event. Today in western music, the "chord" has risen up and has become the basis of much of the understanding of musical vocabulary itself.

Someone in that other thread mentioned various augmented sixth chords and where they came from (which I wondered whether the person asking just wanted to see if the responder knew what they were ). I thought about the thesis that these "chords" (along with the Neopolitan Sixth, et al) evolved purely from the result of voice leading (i.e. counterpoint) both from their preparation as well as their resolution into the area of the "dominant harmony."

Today these vertical events are seen very much as entities unto themselves. They are offered up as opportunities for coloration, the way one might use a cool texturizer in Photoshop to "add interest" to a photo image. But I think this orientation has us disconnected from our melodic roots by "autoharping" our musical vocabulary so much.

And to think that the new musical language that we now speak might all be a matter of "perspective" sort of gives me the creeps...

I am rambling...my apologies...So anyway Gary, welcome to KVR! I hope you share some of your really great experience and ideas with us! I've always wanted to see Nova Scotia.

[djanthonyw]

melody let me finger her behind the bikesheds.

That's a short but deep answer!

[Ogg Vorbis]

melody let me finger her behind the bikesheds.

That's a short but deep answer!

Sweet thread mashup! KVR remixed.

[djanthonyw]

[peppy197]

A good melody is a sequence of structural tones (one voice) with rhythm which are IN HARMONY with a selected progression towards some sort of resolution.

The harmony (more than one voice) is chosen to enrichen the melody and avoid simple repetition of it, and when properly chosen will convey certain moods, or colors...feelings...stuff.

BUT it is all a "chicken OR egg first" type of duality,

or some variation of that
All subject to dischord and accord, naturally or harmonically speakin


maybe...

[Ogg Vorbis]

A good melody is a sequence of structural tones (one voice) with rhythm which are IN HARMONY with a selected progression towards some sort of resolution.

The harmony (more than one voice) is chosen to enrichen the melody and avoid simple repetition of it, and when properly chosen will convey certain moods, or colors...feelings...stuff.

BUT it is all a "chicken OR egg first" type of duality,

or some variation of that
All subject to dischord and accord, naturally or harmonically speakin


maybe...

Let's keep going off of that...Maybe if you and I keep typing we'll eventually arrive at some eternal truth (or stumble on Copernicus' recipe for buckwheat pancakes).

[peppy197]

Let's keep going off of that...Maybe if you and I keep typing we'll eventually arrive at some eternal truth (or stumble on Copernicus' recipe for buckwheat pancakes).

true enough

is it better to compose of song or to compose a sentence defining the song?

i chose to work on the first one.


Allen