MU-Community what about add SF2 format (and others Akai ... ) into SAMPLA ? ;)

[MuTools]

Just questions:

* What's the practical state of the open SFZ format
* Is SFZ widely used?
* Is SFZ a true replacement for SF2?

[pljones]

Roland don't like SFZ, I think... Roland own Cakewalk (more or less). Cakewalk own SFZ. Cakewalk's leading samplers load SFZ format.

Third party samplers, such as LinuxSampler (and Shortcircuit?), load SFZ (to one extent or another, similarly to the nature of SF2 support). Extreme Sample Converter has SFZ support (though I've not really tried it out). Kontakt has crappy SFZ support.

A slowly growing number of commercial sample libraries come with SFZ support. (Mostly I'm aware of drum kits.)

Technically, there's nothing in SF2 that can't be done in SFZ. The opposite is far from true. SFZ version 2 is a very complete way of specifying how to handle a sample set. Unfortunately, it's not exactly a standard (each of Cakewalk's SFZ samplers has a slightly different set of OpCodes, for example, as the engine gets tuned appropriately).

But in terms of what the original poster is after, SFZ and SF2 are worlds apart. SFZ is still really a computer geek, know-sampling-from-the-inside scene. SF2 is a plug-it-in-it-works scene.

[MuTools]

Thanks pljones!

So i guess there are a lot more SF2s than SFZs, right?

But at the other hand: Isn't it easier to make a SFZ multisample than a SF2 multisample?

[pljones]

There are several orders of magnitude more SF2 files than SFZ files, I'd guess, yes! (There are gazillions of commercial AKAI sample libraries around...)

But the tools are dying out. Extreme Sample Converter does SF2 - I've no idea how good a job it does, though. The Creative Labs Vienna program is locked to their hardware (and maybe even locked to the RAM size on the hardware). Similarly with AKAI format. (René wrote an AKAI to SFZ format v1 converter; it's available still...) The independently-produced "Viena" (one "n", trying to be clever...) program, last time I tried it, was pretty gruesome and unreliable - and, from what I read, it's not improved.

Hmm... There are a few more SoundFont editing tools that I thought - strangely, many are for Linux, rather than Windows.

If you have filenames like "Piano_C#3_001.wav", you can create an SFZ file using a Windows .BAT script (OK, needs a little post-editing to get the velocity layers right... And I don't recommend it -- Steve Holt's sfZed is nicer; if you want to edit the text file and have highlighting in UltraEdit, you can get Simon Cann's tools.) And you don't get to have two copies of the data (SF2 is monolithic, SFZ references the .WAV files - or .aiff, .ogg, what-have-you, depending what the sample engine supports).

But the original poster is after support for legacy files that people have collected over the last 20-ish years, rather than creating new content, I think. (Hence why I don't think you need to do anything but provide support for reading the samples and "meta-data" and "build" a multisampla to play it.)

[MuTools]

Ok, i see.

I asked these questions related to this topic but also related to "The MultiSampla Rock Pack" topic.

I try to know what would be best to do first in a future version of MU.LAB: support SF2 or support SFZ?

I don't want people to make sample packs which are dedicated to MultiSampla, i do want them to use a public format! This is best for everyone!

But SF2 is better for reading (because a big library of SF2s available) but SFZ is better for creating (clearly a more modern design).

So it's not so easy to decide...

[sorohanro]

I find the way that MultiSampla behave and look very easy to use, that's my first reason to make packs for it. It's easier than for any other and don't require additional software.

Also loads uncompressed wav files at 24 & 32 bit, so is a bit more quality.
As I know sf2 it's compressed.
A public format it's good to have but I don't know for you, as a developer of Mu.Lab how it's better:
- To have a samplepack that sounds good and it's usable only with your program, so people will get the free version at least to try and some might be convinced after using it (like I was).
- To have a "public format" that people who use different DAW would want and see your DAW (and try...and be convinced after using it).

I'll keep doing what I do and you'll see what suit you better.
As a side note, I don't like too much soundfonts. Some (like Papelmedia) sounds almost ok, but most of them are lo-fi to my ears.

[MuTools]

I find the way that MultiSampla behave and look very easy to use, that's my first reason to make packs for it. It's easier than for any other and don't require additional software.

Also loads uncompressed wav files at 24 & 32 bit, so is a bit more quality.
As I know sf2 it's compressed.
A public format it's good to have but I don't know for you, as a developer of Mu.Lab how it's better:
- To have a samplepack that sounds good and it's usable only with your program, so people will get the free version at least to try and some might be convinced after using it (like I was).
- To have a "public format" that people who use different DAW would want and see your DAW (and try...and be convinced after using it).

I'll keep doing what I do and you'll see what suit you better.

Ok, that's certainly fine

I'll soon try out your sample packs myself, am curious!

If you need any technical support from my side let me know!

As a side note, I don't like too much soundfonts. Some (like Papelmedia) sounds almost ok, but most of them are lo-fi to my ears.

The lower quality of SF2s is caused by the fact it can only do 16 bit audio, IIRC.

[pquenin]

I want to add this to what has been said :
- The free Highlife sampler from discoDSP can read and save in SFZ format,
- The free Shortcircuit from Vember Audio can read SFZ and SF2 files,
- The demo version of Chainer can save in SF2 format,
- I have used Viena (with a single "n") and have no problem with it to create SF2,
- SFZed can create SFZ and read SF2 so you can translate a SF2 to SFZ,
- Extreme Sample Converter can read/write SF2 and SFZ so you can convert from one format to another.

What is cool with SFZ is that you can create or edit a SFZ file with a notepad...

But you are right : it's not a good thing to have another format (MultiSampla), I think the SFZ format is a kind of "generic" format, and if you create simple SFZ files (the basics opcodes), there will be no problem to convert them in a SF2 with an external tool if needed. And they will be readable by the most popular soundfont player : SFZ or by the Highlife or Shorcircuit free samplers...

[pljones]

Creative released version 2.4 (IIRC) which supports a backward compatible 24-bit sample format: there's an extra space for holding the extra eight bits of sample data, which is simply ignored by SF2 players that don't understand it. SF2 files contain uncompressed samples -- but mostly you'll find looped samples... I suppose that's a form of lossy compression.

[synthyboy]

Also loads uncompressed wav files at 24 & 32 bit, so is a bit more quality.
As I know sf2 it's compressed.

Ha, but mp3 is compressed too, I hope you not using so bad and noisy format ALSO, you CAN compressed any format (include sf2 and others) as you want (just push "SETTINGS" )

As a side note, I don't like too much soundfonts.

nobody try to make you love it, you "have the right" just not use them.
Man, try to understand, the question is not "OR WAV OR SF2 AND DOT" ,
but Wav plus SF2

Some (like Papelmedia) sounds almost ok, but most of them are lo-fi to my ears.

Sorry, but your samples not ideal too... Big Bit rate is not mean good sounds, ok, but NOT "bright". I'm el. guitarist too, not keyboardist only ... Also, you can find libraries with ANY type distortion guitars form Fender, Gibson to Jackson and others models in SF2 format with good quality LOWEST MB size and recorded in the Hollywood studios for any styles ... It seems I understand, (may be I'm wrong, don't know) you just never heard before normal QUALITY SoundFonts with Orchestra and other Live instruments, not compressed "GM128 bank 1Mb"

[synthyboy]

Ok, i see.

I asked these questions related to this topic but also related to "The MultiSampla Rock Pack" topic.

I try to know what would be best to do first in a future version of MU.LAB: support SF2 or support SFZ?

I don't want people to make sample packs which are dedicated to MultiSampla, i do want them to use a public format! This is best for everyone!

But SF2 is better for reading (because a big library of SF2s available) but SFZ is better for creating (clearly a more modern design).

So it's not so easy to decide...

Hi Jo, thanx for your reply here. I'm thinking better SF2 to do first.
Yes, because sf2 format have a biggest world library.

[synthyboy]

But the original poster is after support for legacy files that people have collected over the last 20-ish years, rather than creating new content, I think. (Hence why I don't think you need to do anything but provide support for reading the samples and "meta-data" and "build" a multisampla to play it.)

I have found in the internet a company (don't remeber their name, they also making a mastering for djs and metal bands) with SF2 packs for ... Electro House and Minimal Techno ... per 40 $ for. And their demo really "ROCKS !".
Guys, about we talking ??? GM-128 Standard and SF2 still alive and this is "Klassica", "Denim", "VintAge"

[TheGuysanIdiot]

Hi All,

I have to do stuff elsewhere for a bit but I would like to make a quick comment for what it is worth on Multisampla and soundfont stuff.

I think if all comments made so far were put in a big pot and stirred with a spoon and a few magic words spoken I think you would have a neat solution for the future.

A soundfont dragged in to MU.LAB and read by Multisampla would be great. There are loads out there. I think you would make many users out there happy that MU.LAB could read soundfont files.

I also like the easy use of Multisampla using WAV files etc.

And yes the more generic formats you are compatible with the better, within reason of course.

It is a valid point that some how Multisampla natively should use an existing generic format, but it still should work similarly to how it does now as it is a very easy to use sampler.

How many formats it could read is up to discussion and what its native format should be is also up for discussion.

I have no idea how you would re-program Multisampla but I can see it would be worth investigating how to get Multisampla to read generic sample formats etc.

[sorohanro] - Good work on the Guitar samples, yes I like how Multisampla works too.

[synthyboy] - Soundfont compatibility in MU.LAB, yes me too.

[pquenin] - The stuff that you said. SFZ etc.

[pljones] - Accurate historical/technical coverage of sampler formats.

So talk amongst yourselves I am sure you and Jo will come up with the goods.

OZ

[sorohanro]

Ha, but mp3 is compressed too, I hope you not using so bad and noisy format ALSO, you CAN compressed any format (include sf2 and others) as you want (just push "SETTINGS" )

Well, let's say that I have quite many CD and vinyl discs.
When I really really like some music I try to get the CD if available.
Now to make myself clear about quality and pop music. Go listen Lady Gaga's album The Fame Monster(2009) and then Pat Metheny's album The Way Up(2003-2005). Compare them as sound quality, how much detail is in Pat Metheny's album, how can you hear every instrument "breathing", how clear sounds everything without stepping on each other toes even that there are sometimes more than 20 different instruments(2003-2005)... And then technology evolved (2009) and we have 2 or 3 instruments with a drum and a voice, mixed aggressive and beside loud have no other quality.

nobody try to make you love it, you "have the right" just not use them.
Man, try to understand, the question is not "OR WAV OR SF2 AND DOT" ,
but Wav plus SF2

Maybe expressing ideas in English is not my best feature
So, yes, from this point of view I agree, Mu.Lab should have a sf2 player. That can be MultiSampla or a new player.

Sorry, but your samples not ideal too... Big Bit rate is not mean good sounds, ok, but NOT "bright". I'm el. guitarist too, not keyboardist only ...

I never pretended that I just made the next Ministry of Rock. As for "bright", as I wrote already in the description of the pack, it's "dry". Beside distortion and amp have no effects, not even EQ, so you can (should) put your own low cut (or high pass) filter according to the bass sound you're using.
You can also "brighten" the sound by boosting EQ somewhere between 2 khz and 4 khz to get a bit more bite, a little boost a bit higher as well between 5-6 khz might work too but you should do that according to the voice and cymbals in your mix.
I often do another tricks, I put a exciter to a send channel or I put a reverb on send and a exciter on the reverb channel to brighten up just the reflections but not interfere with cymbals, hi-hats or voice.
So, yeah, I let everybody to take their mixing choices not to be stuck just with one, mine.
If by "bright" you meant good, well, I'm sure you heard better... heck, I heard better too but this is what I could do best for now to have a decent balance between number of layers, sound quality, size and usability on a normal (small) keyboard.
I say that sit quite well in a mix

It seems I understand, (may be I'm wrong, don't know) you just never heard before normal QUALITY SoundFonts with Orchestra and other Live instruments, not compressed "GM128 bank 1Mb"

Just Sonic Implants and Papelmedia.

Papelmedia choir it's good and free and I'm using it, but if I would have money for Omnisphere or EWQL Choirs I wouldn't use the Papelmedia choir soundfont.

Hi All,
[sorohanro] - Good work on the Guitar samples, yes I like how Multisampla works too.
So talk amongst yourselves I am sure you and Jo will come up with the goods.
OZ

Thanx man, thanx.
I'm sure Jo will fix things too

[MuTools]

Hi All,
[sorohanro] - Good work on the Guitar samples, yes I like how Multisampla works too.
So talk amongst yourselves I am sure you and Jo will come up with the goods.
OZ

Thanx man, thanx.
I'm sure Jo will fix things too

Euh, fix what? Sorry if i missed something.