Pianoteq 3
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- KVRist
- 309 posts since 11 Sep, 2005 from Virginia
I respect your opinion. However, I believe it is in the 10%... not the 90% where most pianists would rank Ivory vs. Pianoteq. At this moment I find Ivory to be as good as it gets. As a matter of fact it sounds better than my beloved C7 and this is coming through my 10SM monitors. You would really have to impress me to switch from Ivory.
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
I agree with you about the Pianoteq default presets...they all sound like you are standing 3 feet away. Pianoteq 3 introduced a mic modeling system that allows you to place up to 5 mics virtually around (and even in inside) the piano. This added a sorely needed depth of realism, but it also allows some dramatic effects too.PhilMuller wrote:Are you saying that Pianotec has come a long way with their new versions and are competing head to head with Ivory? If that is the case, then maybe I should give Pianotec another shot.
I had been playing Kurzweil keyboards for my piano sounds prior to that, so that is my reference. Most of the Kurzweil pianos (at the time) were the 'triple-strike' variety, so having 127 expressive velocity levels was immediately impressive. I am sure that instruments like Ivory attempt all of those levels of velocity (and many of the other sound characteristics), and that is why there are huge memory and cpu requirements. I believe that the push for 64 bit systems is specifically because of this.
Modeling provides a level of depth and character based on algorithmic intelligence that I don't believe sampled based instruments can provide. For example, the sympathetic resonance is an intense calculation of reflections of sound based on conditions and acoustics (i.e. the size of the sound board, the length of the string, the number of keys depressed, etc.). A sample based instrument can only turn samples on and off at any given moment...the samples cannot interact in the manner that resonance and reflection constitute.
If you give Pianoteq another go, try the "close mic" presets, or bring the reverb down a bit. Many of the Pianoteq aficionados like the stock presets, but I personally had to create my own. You should also give the electric pianos, harpsichords, and mic modeling section a try too. And when you do your side by side, listen for more subtle things like the resonance and damper effects. Ultimately, it all comes down to what works for you of course.
JR
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 230 posts since 29 Jan, 2003
I'm not sure where you get the 90% vs 10% stat, but whether true or not is mostly irrelevant. I can cite accomplished pianists who would differ but who really cares. Use what you like best. The point of this thread was to inquire and prod Muse to get the latest version of Pianoteq working on all Receptors. Thanks to John Rule for his work showing it can work on Receptor 1. Now I hope Muse will put forth the effort to bring Pianoteq on Receptor up to date.
Jon
Jon
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- KVRist
- 309 posts since 11 Sep, 2005 from Virginia
John,
Now you have me intrigued. I will give it a try again and spend some time dialing it in.
As far as Muse goes; they are really good people and therefore I can only infer that it must be very difficult to deal with some VST plugins on Linux. I know they had plenty of problems getting Real Guitar working. I think it was the MIDI that gave them headaches. I hope it still is on their queue. You would think that if they can get one VST plugin working... why not the rest. Aren't they all the same? Apparently not. It only serves in their best interest to get plugins up and working on Receptor as fast as they can. When I speak to Rick and Farhan their main focus always seems to be on quality and not quantity.
Now you have me intrigued. I will give it a try again and spend some time dialing it in.
As far as Muse goes; they are really good people and therefore I can only infer that it must be very difficult to deal with some VST plugins on Linux. I know they had plenty of problems getting Real Guitar working. I think it was the MIDI that gave them headaches. I hope it still is on their queue. You would think that if they can get one VST plugin working... why not the rest. Aren't they all the same? Apparently not. It only serves in their best interest to get plugins up and working on Receptor as fast as they can. When I speak to Rick and Farhan their main focus always seems to be on quality and not quantity.
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
That may be the reason for the choice not to provide an installer for Receptor 1...Pianoteq has a few issues with OS 1.7.PhilMuller wrote:When I speak to Rick and Farhan their main focus always seems to be on quality and not quantity.
Pianoteq 3+ works reliably when accessed through the front panel, but it does not like something with the Muse user interface when trying to access the 'Options' panel. Especially in Pianoteq 3.5, it will lock up, and you must reboot. Fortunately, you only need to access this to change settings, and you can get in. Once it is setup, it runs very stable. I believe this is because of the old Linux/Wine OS that is running on Receptor 1 (graphics drivers I assume), so an OS 1.8 update should fix all of that as well.
However, there does not seem to be any prospect for either update from Muse, so I do not share your optimism regarding their service. They are business people to be sure, and I imagine that they see the Receptor 1 (and any support) as an albatross (i.e. no money). It would be welcome indeed if they were "really good people" and resolved these issues for Receptor 1 owners...I have posted enough about this already.
I hope you have a better experience with Pianoteq 3.5. Please post your findings if you do!
JR
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
Despite the lack of interest that Muse has shown in supporting it's Receptor 1 customers, I will step up and provide my own personal instructions on installing Pianoteq 3...
Concise Instructions for installing Pianoteq 3 and above on Receptor 1
By John S. Rule
Vers. 02012010
Hardware tested:
Receptor 1 Rev C
OS 1.7
AMD Turion (single core - 1.8 ghz)
160 gig HD
2 gig memory
"IK Multimedia" edition
44.1 khz, 128 samples
First, I wouldn't try any of this unless you can live without your Receptor for a while if something goes wrong. I would at least do an image of your drive (use Clonezilla or similar), and if you need it for performing, make sure you have an alternative host (like a laptop). And of course, I cannot be responsible for anything that happens to your Receptor because of this document. I did, however, do all of this without any precautions and my Receptor survived.
Now, on to the instructions!
(For the sake of these instructions, I left my IP address in the folder path)
There are two install methods:
A) Using the Muse pianoteq30-3_0_5-4.mrpk installer.
B) Using the .dll installed on your computer (for 3.5).
A) Using the Muse installer method:
1) You need to manually create the folder "Pianoteq30" in the "My Documents" folder:
\\192.168.0.198\Hard Drive\My Documents\Pianoteq30
2) This folder should contain the same files as the installation on your computer hard drive:
(something like this)
MidiMappings (folder)
Presets (folder)
Pianoteq30.exe
uninstall.exe
I also put my Addons folder in here, but it really doesn't matter...you will be required to locate these addons using the regular file dialog regardless.
3) You now need the special receptorized pianoteq30.dll, and the only way to get that (at this time) is by using the OS 1.8 installer provided by Muse (at the plugorama website). The installer goes in the usual folder for installs, but the install will fail...it will, however, install the .dll you need. The Muse receptorized .dll is located here:
\\192.168.0.198\Hard Drive\Program Files\VST Plugins\Modartt\Pianoteq30
Just copy the .dll out of here for doing an unsupported install (and for backup).
When you do the unsupported install, it may say that it fails, but as long as you don't actually get the "Failed" file (created in the same folder as the .dll) you should be ok.
4) Finally, you need to rebuild the plug-in database (from the setup page in the Receptor GUI) and make sure you select the right .dll for the Receptor to use (use the "Unsupported plugins" path).
B) Pianoteq 3.5 Installation and notes
In terms of the Pianoteq 3.5 install, you can try the .dll that is installed on your computer...but it is much more complicated, and may not work for you. It is also not "receptorized", so you must use up one of your authorizations (for now anyway). One caveat I would add is that you may not have to do the hard drive pull (and subsequent file modification) that I did.
I believe the real trick is to just get into authorization panel before it freezes...at least that is what it seems like in hindsight. I am convinced that it is due to the graphics issues with OS 1.7 (which OS 1.8 would fix!). Here are the notes I took during my process:
I was able to get Pianoteq 3.5 working on my Receptor 1, but setup is buggy. I can use it normally (fortunately that part seems stable) but going into the "Options" panel almost always causes a hard freeze. I actually saw this behavior with Pianoteq 3.0.5, so I think it has something to do with the graphics engine in Wine that is running in OS 1.7. There was one trick to this...I was not able to even authorize it before because of the 'Welcome' screen, so I edited the prefs file by adding this line:
<VALUE name="welcome-done-301" val="1"/>
This tells Pianoteq not to show the screen on startup. And for good measure, I added this line (I don't know if it is necessary though):
<VALUE name="multicore" val="0"/>
This tells Pianoteq not to use multi-core rendering.
The folder on my Receptor that has this prefs file is here:
\Hard Drive\windows\profiles\root\Application Data\Modartt
Because I do not have the correct permissions for that folder, I had to take my drive out of the Receptor, and access it as root from Linux. Then I was able to change it. For some reason, I had to re-authorize Pianoteq 3.5 after it locked up one time. Maybe Modartt is doing a checksum on the prefs file or something, and noticed it was altered?
Anyway, this proves that the install method for Pianoteq can be accomplished by the end user, and the only thing that is required is the .dll. We should not have to wait for Muse to produce their .mrpk installer files, or 'Direct Install' methods, but that is another argument.
The *procedure for user install is as follows:
1) Create a folder in "My Documents" called "Pianoteq35"
2) Copy the contents of your Pianoteq 3.5 install folder into this folder:
(Contents)
Pianoteq35.exe
uninstall.exe
(you can also put your 'Addons' folder in here as well)
3) Put the Pianoteq 3.5 .dll into the "Unsupported Plug-ins" folder.
4) Go to the Receptor 'Setup' page and install it.
5) Load an instance of Pianoteq 3.5, and authorize.
6) (optional?) Modify the prefs file so that the 'Welcome' screen does not show.
* This is the same procedure for Pianoteq 3, but that install is much easier because you don't have to authorize, and you don't have to edit the prefs file.
More Notes:
- I have (for the most part) been using a Pianoteq 2 converted custom patch that I wrote, but I believe the only real difference is that it is in stereo. I have used other patches (C3 close mic for example) but they really spike my cpu. If I turn off reverb and the mic modeling, it helps.
- Going into the "Options" panel eventually leads to a hard freeze/reboot. Pianoteq 3 seems to be more forgiving, but it crashes as well.
- Selecting a saved preset in the Receptor from the GUI can cause a soft freeze (a quick reset fixes that), but selecting the preset from the front panel is fine.
- The Pianoteq 3.5 unsupported install may have worked due to things setup by the 3.0.5 Muse installer, so it may be necessary to install 3.0.5 first. But, try it anyway if you don't have it installed.
- When you refresh the plugins, you will now have to choose between several Pianoteq .dlls, which allows you to switch between 3.0.5 and 3.5 for testing. Just make sure you choose the right folder path.
- When rebooting from a crash, give your Receptor a few minutes to spin the hard drive down to a stop. You may also trigger an integrity check on the hard drive, so one of the reboots might take longer.
- The Pianoteq plugin (vers. 3 or 3.5) shows up as "Pianoteq3" in the plugin list, so you can't have both at the same time. This is a limitation of the .xml file created by Muse, and you may be able modify that file if you wish so that you have "Pianoteq3" and "Pianoteq35" listed.
[Q]: Is it worth it?
[A]: I think that is a personal choice. I prefer the later version of Pianoteq to Pianoteq 2. It seems like a lot or work for one plug-in, but remember, that is strictly because of Muse. They could have provided an installer even for OS 1.7, but they chose not to. This is the only way to do this right now.
[Q]: Is it stable?
[A]: Once you set things up, and you use the front panel for operation, yes. It is the graphic user interface that is the problem. It's not so bad with version 3.0.5, but 3.5 is difficult, and may take several reboots to get things setup right.
Also, if you have a limited processor (like me) it may barely seem to run your favorite patches, so there is ultimately a hardware limitation. You can set the voice limit to 48 and turn off mic modeling, reverb, etc. to make the performance acceptable though.
Good Luck!
- John
Concise Instructions for installing Pianoteq 3 and above on Receptor 1
By John S. Rule
Vers. 02012010
Hardware tested:
Receptor 1 Rev C
OS 1.7
AMD Turion (single core - 1.8 ghz)
160 gig HD
2 gig memory
"IK Multimedia" edition
44.1 khz, 128 samples
First, I wouldn't try any of this unless you can live without your Receptor for a while if something goes wrong. I would at least do an image of your drive (use Clonezilla or similar), and if you need it for performing, make sure you have an alternative host (like a laptop). And of course, I cannot be responsible for anything that happens to your Receptor because of this document. I did, however, do all of this without any precautions and my Receptor survived.
Now, on to the instructions!
(For the sake of these instructions, I left my IP address in the folder path)
There are two install methods:
A) Using the Muse pianoteq30-3_0_5-4.mrpk installer.
B) Using the .dll installed on your computer (for 3.5).
A) Using the Muse installer method:
1) You need to manually create the folder "Pianoteq30" in the "My Documents" folder:
\\192.168.0.198\Hard Drive\My Documents\Pianoteq30
2) This folder should contain the same files as the installation on your computer hard drive:
(something like this)
MidiMappings (folder)
Presets (folder)
Pianoteq30.exe
uninstall.exe
I also put my Addons folder in here, but it really doesn't matter...you will be required to locate these addons using the regular file dialog regardless.
3) You now need the special receptorized pianoteq30.dll, and the only way to get that (at this time) is by using the OS 1.8 installer provided by Muse (at the plugorama website). The installer goes in the usual folder for installs, but the install will fail...it will, however, install the .dll you need. The Muse receptorized .dll is located here:
\\192.168.0.198\Hard Drive\Program Files\VST Plugins\Modartt\Pianoteq30
Just copy the .dll out of here for doing an unsupported install (and for backup).
When you do the unsupported install, it may say that it fails, but as long as you don't actually get the "Failed" file (created in the same folder as the .dll) you should be ok.
4) Finally, you need to rebuild the plug-in database (from the setup page in the Receptor GUI) and make sure you select the right .dll for the Receptor to use (use the "Unsupported plugins" path).
B) Pianoteq 3.5 Installation and notes
In terms of the Pianoteq 3.5 install, you can try the .dll that is installed on your computer...but it is much more complicated, and may not work for you. It is also not "receptorized", so you must use up one of your authorizations (for now anyway). One caveat I would add is that you may not have to do the hard drive pull (and subsequent file modification) that I did.
I believe the real trick is to just get into authorization panel before it freezes...at least that is what it seems like in hindsight. I am convinced that it is due to the graphics issues with OS 1.7 (which OS 1.8 would fix!). Here are the notes I took during my process:
I was able to get Pianoteq 3.5 working on my Receptor 1, but setup is buggy. I can use it normally (fortunately that part seems stable) but going into the "Options" panel almost always causes a hard freeze. I actually saw this behavior with Pianoteq 3.0.5, so I think it has something to do with the graphics engine in Wine that is running in OS 1.7. There was one trick to this...I was not able to even authorize it before because of the 'Welcome' screen, so I edited the prefs file by adding this line:
<VALUE name="welcome-done-301" val="1"/>
This tells Pianoteq not to show the screen on startup. And for good measure, I added this line (I don't know if it is necessary though):
<VALUE name="multicore" val="0"/>
This tells Pianoteq not to use multi-core rendering.
The folder on my Receptor that has this prefs file is here:
\Hard Drive\windows\profiles\root\Application Data\Modartt
Because I do not have the correct permissions for that folder, I had to take my drive out of the Receptor, and access it as root from Linux. Then I was able to change it. For some reason, I had to re-authorize Pianoteq 3.5 after it locked up one time. Maybe Modartt is doing a checksum on the prefs file or something, and noticed it was altered?
Anyway, this proves that the install method for Pianoteq can be accomplished by the end user, and the only thing that is required is the .dll. We should not have to wait for Muse to produce their .mrpk installer files, or 'Direct Install' methods, but that is another argument.
The *procedure for user install is as follows:
1) Create a folder in "My Documents" called "Pianoteq35"
2) Copy the contents of your Pianoteq 3.5 install folder into this folder:
(Contents)
Pianoteq35.exe
uninstall.exe
(you can also put your 'Addons' folder in here as well)
3) Put the Pianoteq 3.5 .dll into the "Unsupported Plug-ins" folder.
4) Go to the Receptor 'Setup' page and install it.
5) Load an instance of Pianoteq 3.5, and authorize.
6) (optional?) Modify the prefs file so that the 'Welcome' screen does not show.
* This is the same procedure for Pianoteq 3, but that install is much easier because you don't have to authorize, and you don't have to edit the prefs file.
More Notes:
- I have (for the most part) been using a Pianoteq 2 converted custom patch that I wrote, but I believe the only real difference is that it is in stereo. I have used other patches (C3 close mic for example) but they really spike my cpu. If I turn off reverb and the mic modeling, it helps.
- Going into the "Options" panel eventually leads to a hard freeze/reboot. Pianoteq 3 seems to be more forgiving, but it crashes as well.
- Selecting a saved preset in the Receptor from the GUI can cause a soft freeze (a quick reset fixes that), but selecting the preset from the front panel is fine.
- The Pianoteq 3.5 unsupported install may have worked due to things setup by the 3.0.5 Muse installer, so it may be necessary to install 3.0.5 first. But, try it anyway if you don't have it installed.
- When you refresh the plugins, you will now have to choose between several Pianoteq .dlls, which allows you to switch between 3.0.5 and 3.5 for testing. Just make sure you choose the right folder path.
- When rebooting from a crash, give your Receptor a few minutes to spin the hard drive down to a stop. You may also trigger an integrity check on the hard drive, so one of the reboots might take longer.
- The Pianoteq plugin (vers. 3 or 3.5) shows up as "Pianoteq3" in the plugin list, so you can't have both at the same time. This is a limitation of the .xml file created by Muse, and you may be able modify that file if you wish so that you have "Pianoteq3" and "Pianoteq35" listed.
[Q]: Is it worth it?
[A]: I think that is a personal choice. I prefer the later version of Pianoteq to Pianoteq 2. It seems like a lot or work for one plug-in, but remember, that is strictly because of Muse. They could have provided an installer even for OS 1.7, but they chose not to. This is the only way to do this right now.
[Q]: Is it stable?
[A]: Once you set things up, and you use the front panel for operation, yes. It is the graphic user interface that is the problem. It's not so bad with version 3.0.5, but 3.5 is difficult, and may take several reboots to get things setup right.
Also, if you have a limited processor (like me) it may barely seem to run your favorite patches, so there is ultimately a hardware limitation. You can set the voice limit to 48 and turn off mic modeling, reverb, etc. to make the performance acceptable though.
Good Luck!
- John
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- KVRian
- 581 posts since 30 Nov, 2008 from Denver CO USA
I think it's great that you got around those buggers. It really is all about the source code with these guys. It's like Windows makes available an OS so you can build or buy your own as strong as you need. Apple was more like Muse in that you used to only be able to run their OS on their hardware but these days one can actually run it on a buy or build. Muse wants to be the old Apple and keep things under lock and key so that you have to buy one of their computers, I mean receptors so that you can buy their receptorized plugs and buy upgrades when a new OS comes out and they think you should pay for new hardware. I can buy or build a 2 unit rackmount that will easily blow away a receptor and upgrade when I want and not have to pay nearly as much as a receptor cost if only the OS was available. So is their OS totally unhackable or what?
A minor scale is a major scale starting 3 half steps down from the major and visa versa. Any Chord has as many versions as it has notes.
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
Thanks!batgab wrote:Nice work, John!
JR
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
I am with you on that...Throbert wrote:I can buy or build a 2 unit rackmount that will easily blow away a receptor and upgrade when I want and not have to pay nearly as much as a receptor cost if only the OS was available.
I was actually going to build a rack mount Mac to house my Oasys PCI at the time I was looking at the Receptor. I believe it was the whole "Uniwire" thing that sold me. Uniwire has never worked reliably for me, and I wonder if it has ever been useful for anyone with a Receptor 1 (or 2 for that matter)?
No, it isn't unhackable, it's just not worth it. Why do I want to run Win32 plugins in a Linux/Wine environment? If the argument is that it is more stable, that is nonsense. Even if there was one good reason to run my plugins in this manner it is far outweighed by the inconvenience.Throbert wrote:So is their OS totally unhackable or what?
I am just trying to find value in a very expensive purchase, and doing it without the help of Muse unfortunately.
JR
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- KVRian
- 581 posts since 30 Nov, 2008 from Denver CO USA
I understand, it makes me think the old, wish I new then what I know now. Well now that they are merged with Peavey may be Muse will get the Ensonic treatment
A minor scale is a major scale starting 3 half steps down from the major and visa versa. Any Chord has as many versions as it has notes.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 230 posts since 29 Jan, 2003
Well there is a good reason to use a receptor over any computer you can currently set up and I've posted about this advantage a couple of times before.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=
Whether it matters to anyone besides me is a different question. But personally as a player this consistency of response and low variance makes all the difference in the world.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=
Whether it matters to anyone besides me is a different question. But personally as a player this consistency of response and low variance makes all the difference in the world.
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
That is, of course, your personal opinion. I don't agree, and it is easy enough to build your own superior host. I do agree with you on the added value of the Receptor...it is optimized right out of the box for you. However, the incompatibilities and proprietary nature have detracted from that one positive feature for me.jeamsler wrote:Well there is a good reason to use a receptor over any computer...
Regardless, this is a thread in which we were discussing getting Pianoteq running on a Receptor 1. We became slightly off topic while reminiscing about building our own boxes to solve various issues.
JR
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- KVRian
- 691 posts since 13 May, 2004 from Silicon Valley
Hey Everyone,
Has anyone tried John's method for getting Pianoteq 3.5 (or greater) on Receptor 2 (or OS 1.8 )? I'd love to try out the Clav expansion there.
Regards,
Kevin L
Has anyone tried John's method for getting Pianoteq 3.5 (or greater) on Receptor 2 (or OS 1.8 )? I'd love to try out the Clav expansion there.
Regards,
Kevin L
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- KVRist
- 411 posts since 25 Apr, 2007 from Northern CA
I'm glad you posted...it pushed me to try the latest version on my Receptor. I now have the new "K1" piano (i.e. Pianoteq 3.6) running on my Receptor 1 Rev C and it sounds great! The performance is decent too, although I upgraded the cpu to a 2.6 ghz recently.looneytunes wrote:Hey Everyone,
Has anyone tried John's method for getting Pianoteq 3.5 (or greater) on Receptor 2 (or OS 1.8 )? I'd love to try out the Clav expansion there.
Regards,
Kevin L
The process was actually much simpler the second time for some reason...I just had to edit the registry to tell the .dll where the executable was. It didn't matter where I placed the files...
This latest version actually seemed more stable too. I was able to poke around the menus a bit without the Receptor locking up. I also took this picture for your enjoyment.
JR
Last edited by johnrule on Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.