Seriously, the one thing that can get on my nerves real quick is a non-intuitive GUI within a software app. If I have to think too much about that while working, I don't like the app.
Just one man's opinion
Heresy alert: You left REAPER and went to...
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 9 May, 2007
I looked at that god awful GUI and just left. Never did look back. Oh...did I mention it has more menus than every other host combined? I'm still trying to figure out what all those icons on top of each track mean (they look like comic book figures lol), c'mon how hard is it to make them intuitive or at the very least familiar?
Seriously, the one thing that can get on my nerves real quick is a non-intuitive GUI within a software app. If I have to think too much about that while working, I don't like the app.
Just one man's opinion
Seriously, the one thing that can get on my nerves real quick is a non-intuitive GUI within a software app. If I have to think too much about that while working, I don't like the app.
Just one man's opinion
PT 9 | Cubase 6 | Sony Acid Pro 7 for Laptop | Soundforge 9 | Wavelab | Guitars | Korg M3 | Korg Triton Extreme |
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
I'm a frequent critic of the 'little' details in the Reaper interface that could be improved.
That being said, some people like menus, some don't.
Brent
It does have a lot of menus. You CAN fully edit them though if you want to, as well as assign custom macros and commands and put them in menus. Also, you can add any commands you want to the button bar or to the custom floating button bars if you want. So there is some possibility to clean that up a bit.Gabriel_S wrote:I looked at that god awful GUI and just left. Never did look back. Oh...did I mention it has more menus than every other host combined?
That being said, some people like menus, some don't.
I'm not a big fan of the default theme, but you CAN change all those icons. I don't know that they are necessarily unintuitive, at least no more than other apps. But I do prefer many other themes instead of the default, so maybe it's worse than I remember.I'm still trying to figure out what all those icons on top of each track mean (they look like comic book figures lol), c'mon how hard is it to make them intuitive or at the very least familiar?
Brent
My host is better than your host
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 9 May, 2007
Yeah I'm aware of those features Brent, but for the life of me that has to be the worst designed GUI I've ever set my eyes upon. Now I know that folks are going to say that a GUI does not a host make but in reality when you do this for a living and your staring at the damn thing all day and most of the night long, it better be pleasant and easy on your eyes.
Sad thing is, I REALLY like the folks over at the Reaper forum, some of the nicest people I've met but darn......ughhhhhh
Sad thing is, I REALLY like the folks over at the Reaper forum, some of the nicest people I've met but darn......ughhhhhh
PT 9 | Cubase 6 | Sony Acid Pro 7 for Laptop | Soundforge 9 | Wavelab | Guitars | Korg M3 | Korg Triton Extreme |
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- KVRist
- 166 posts since 26 Jun, 2007
I'm bored hence i'm making comments at 3 30am (uk time).
I was also put off by Reaper's GUI. It wasn't in the slightest bit intuitive and I barely managed to get it to do anything because of it.
Not going to slag the program off though, for the price it's pretty excellent and if they were to iron out the many problems it does have, then it could make a serious attempt at being in the top 5 in the audio/midi seq world but at the moment, it's not happening, not by a long chalk.
I even managed to get more out of Macaw and that's a bastard to work with.
Now can some fanboi's and scamboi's start a proper war, none of your petty squabbling will do.
I was also put off by Reaper's GUI. It wasn't in the slightest bit intuitive and I barely managed to get it to do anything because of it.
Not going to slag the program off though, for the price it's pretty excellent and if they were to iron out the many problems it does have, then it could make a serious attempt at being in the top 5 in the audio/midi seq world but at the moment, it's not happening, not by a long chalk.
I even managed to get more out of Macaw and that's a bastard to work with.
Now can some fanboi's and scamboi's start a proper war, none of your petty squabbling will do.
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
Again, I will be the first to agree that the Reaper GUI has some issues. I DO think they are mostly small issues, but issues nonetheless.
In my recent attempts with Reaper though, I have found that while some things aren't very apparent, there is a lot you can do. Granted, using hotkeys speeds things up VASTLY. But there are a lot of really cool little things that make working with it easier.
It's NOT my main host, I should point out. And I will continue to be a critical person concerning Reaper. But I think it just does some things different, and when you see them, you get it a little better.
I do know that they are working on a few things visually that are a step in the right direction, but I fully agree that some things aren't as intuitive as they could be. Reaper is a host that you have to set up to use, and not a host that will likely click right away with most people. I 100% understand where ya'll are coming from.
May I ask, if I may, what specific tasks you guys are having problems doing intuitively? This is purely a curious question to try and understand more where you are coming from. I may agree on some things.
Brent
In my recent attempts with Reaper though, I have found that while some things aren't very apparent, there is a lot you can do. Granted, using hotkeys speeds things up VASTLY. But there are a lot of really cool little things that make working with it easier.
It's NOT my main host, I should point out. And I will continue to be a critical person concerning Reaper. But I think it just does some things different, and when you see them, you get it a little better.
I do know that they are working on a few things visually that are a step in the right direction, but I fully agree that some things aren't as intuitive as they could be. Reaper is a host that you have to set up to use, and not a host that will likely click right away with most people. I 100% understand where ya'll are coming from.
May I ask, if I may, what specific tasks you guys are having problems doing intuitively? This is purely a curious question to try and understand more where you are coming from. I may agree on some things.
Brent
My host is better than your host
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- KVRAF
- 1855 posts since 21 Sep, 2004 from Musician, Recording Engineer, Producer
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- KVRist
- 350 posts since 9 May, 2007
Well....it's not really the tasks Brent. Listen, I've used pretty much every major host on the market. this is what I do ! I'm fluent in Steinberg, ProTools, Cakewalk, I know my way around Logic, Live, Reason, Acid Pro and of course Traction where we 1st met (I'm sure I left out a few minor hosts like N-Track etc).
Even though all of these hosts use slightly different terminology for some tasks I can quickly find my way around just about any host on the market within minutes. Cubase is known for its steep learning curve by some, but the GUI was an ingenious design. I could easily spend 12 hours looking at that host with absolutely no eye strain.
Reaper was designed in a very unconventional way. The terminology that Justin uses, at least to me seems foreign if you know what I mean. Hell I would need to go out and buy a new set of ink cartridges just to download and print out the manual lol. Now I understand that most of the above mentioned hosts are by no means a walk in the park for the novice but quite frankly, once you learn one, you pretty much know them all. Just Feels like Justin went out of his way to design a completely different beast. I have no problems with that, some folks have been using it for years and it's second nature to them, I simply don't have the time or the want to learn an entirely new language, my schedule simply doesn't allow for it.
With that said the most important thing to me is ease of work and an easy on the eyes GUI. Reaper, for me anyways, lacks in both of those areas and is why it will never make it to any of the major recording houses as it is today. Remember, time is money, we need to be able to jump from one major host to another instantaneously which is exactly why the major ones are designed in a similar fashion.
Maybe one day, Reaper will get a major GUI and menu overhaul and I may just jump right on board. Till then.......Ughhhhhhh lol.
Even though all of these hosts use slightly different terminology for some tasks I can quickly find my way around just about any host on the market within minutes. Cubase is known for its steep learning curve by some, but the GUI was an ingenious design. I could easily spend 12 hours looking at that host with absolutely no eye strain.
Reaper was designed in a very unconventional way. The terminology that Justin uses, at least to me seems foreign if you know what I mean. Hell I would need to go out and buy a new set of ink cartridges just to download and print out the manual lol. Now I understand that most of the above mentioned hosts are by no means a walk in the park for the novice but quite frankly, once you learn one, you pretty much know them all. Just Feels like Justin went out of his way to design a completely different beast. I have no problems with that, some folks have been using it for years and it's second nature to them, I simply don't have the time or the want to learn an entirely new language, my schedule simply doesn't allow for it.
With that said the most important thing to me is ease of work and an easy on the eyes GUI. Reaper, for me anyways, lacks in both of those areas and is why it will never make it to any of the major recording houses as it is today. Remember, time is money, we need to be able to jump from one major host to another instantaneously which is exactly why the major ones are designed in a similar fashion.
Maybe one day, Reaper will get a major GUI and menu overhaul and I may just jump right on board. Till then.......Ughhhhhhh lol.
Last edited by Gabriel_S on Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
PT 9 | Cubase 6 | Sony Acid Pro 7 for Laptop | Soundforge 9 | Wavelab | Guitars | Korg M3 | Korg Triton Extreme |
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
Didn't read your entire response yet(just getting ready to leave work), but I was purely asking out of curiosity. I am also very familiar and fluent with most hosts out there, and own many or most of them. So I absolutely know what the differences are and where the downfalls you speak of are. I'm just curious really.
I'll comment more later when I get home.
Brent
I'll comment more later when I get home.
Brent
My host is better than your host
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deleted deleted https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
Funny, I always found the GUI to be pleasant AND very intuitive.
Nonetheless I'll be switching to Ableton Live soon. This is mainly for its workflow, which I tested and really liked, the obvious considerations for playing and improvising live, and finally - don't laugh - stability reasons. I've read a lot here about the many bugs in Live 8, but I also read that these are the minority. True?
I've been using Reaper for 8 months now, and I feel that it has become increasingly unstable. It might be my system, of course, but there are so many glitches when using VSTis. Click a plugin too soon after opening the plugin browser - crash. GUIs get smeared when overlapped by other windows. After working for about 45 minutes, I save and restart Reaper, because it always crashes at least once after this time span. Indeed, I find myself hitting save after nearly every little step in anticipation of a crash. Loading times of especially NI and AD plugins are considerably longer than in FLStudio. Reaper also doesn't seem to "like" certain plugins on my system, most noticeably IK's TRacks, as it's much more crash-prone when I have two or three of these on a track.
Just recording audio is fine, but working with plugins is becoming a royal pain with Reaper, I'm sorry to say. And I don't have the patience or time to wait for all those fixes (which are nice and frequent, but never seem to adress my specific problems). And I know from Chris Randall that the good folks of Cockos are refusing to look into a particular graphics issue that afflicts AD plugs, because they say the blame is not theirs. That doesn't get them any points in my book.
edit: that last part has been put to rest. Cockos did work with AD on this, and a solution is in the works. Neither party was to blame. Apologies for the wrongful accusation.
Nonetheless I'll be switching to Ableton Live soon. This is mainly for its workflow, which I tested and really liked, the obvious considerations for playing and improvising live, and finally - don't laugh - stability reasons. I've read a lot here about the many bugs in Live 8, but I also read that these are the minority. True?
I've been using Reaper for 8 months now, and I feel that it has become increasingly unstable. It might be my system, of course, but there are so many glitches when using VSTis. Click a plugin too soon after opening the plugin browser - crash. GUIs get smeared when overlapped by other windows. After working for about 45 minutes, I save and restart Reaper, because it always crashes at least once after this time span. Indeed, I find myself hitting save after nearly every little step in anticipation of a crash. Loading times of especially NI and AD plugins are considerably longer than in FLStudio. Reaper also doesn't seem to "like" certain plugins on my system, most noticeably IK's TRacks, as it's much more crash-prone when I have two or three of these on a track.
Just recording audio is fine, but working with plugins is becoming a royal pain with Reaper, I'm sorry to say. And I don't have the patience or time to wait for all those fixes (which are nice and frequent, but never seem to adress my specific problems). And I know from Chris Randall that the good folks of Cockos are refusing to look into a particular graphics issue that afflicts AD plugs, because they say the blame is not theirs. That doesn't get them any points in my book.
edit: that last part has been put to rest. Cockos did work with AD on this, and a solution is in the works. Neither party was to blame. Apologies for the wrongful accusation.
Last edited by ariston on Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 24464 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Never had any stability problems like that in Reaper. Must be your system - possibly graphics card, or some driver conflicts.
If Cockos says that they're not to blame, then I believe them. They are great programmers and certainly know what they're talking about. They even contact other developers to work with them in resolving specific issues, and it was solved many times positively.
Cockos even introduced EW PLAY support on their own, since EW themselves obviously didn't want to support it.
I assume that when they say that they're not to blame for certain errors, that usually means that they did their best to work around the issue, but to no avail. Because, not every error can be fixed from one side only. Both sides need to cooperate. And if there's a plugin which behaves not according to VST standards, then that needs to be fixed from the plugin dev's side. Cockos can't be blamed for not introducing stability workarounds for thousands of buggy plugins.
(But they did make workarounds for some very particular type of plugins, like UAD and Synthedit plugins.)
If Cockos says that they're not to blame, then I believe them. They are great programmers and certainly know what they're talking about. They even contact other developers to work with them in resolving specific issues, and it was solved many times positively.
Cockos even introduced EW PLAY support on their own, since EW themselves obviously didn't want to support it.
I assume that when they say that they're not to blame for certain errors, that usually means that they did their best to work around the issue, but to no avail. Because, not every error can be fixed from one side only. Both sides need to cooperate. And if there's a plugin which behaves not according to VST standards, then that needs to be fixed from the plugin dev's side. Cockos can't be blamed for not introducing stability workarounds for thousands of buggy plugins.
(But they did make workarounds for some very particular type of plugins, like UAD and Synthedit plugins.)
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
With respect, the fact that you don't have problems on your system does not mean that it is necessarily other users' systems that are at fault. Perhaps Reaper isn't tested on such a wide range of system configurations as some other software: there are lots of variables here, and the fact that Reaper runs fine on some systems does not alter the fact that it may be problems with Reaper that cause it to crash on others.DragonSagoth wrote:Never had any stability problems like that in Reaper. Must be your system - possibly graphics card, or some driver conflicts.
FWIW, every version of Reaper that I have tried/demoed (and I've tried it about six or seven times) has crashed on my computer. Cubase, Live, Sonar, Reason, Tracktion, Record, Sibelius, Audition and others all run (or have when I previously owned them) just fine on my very standard Windows XP system - the crashes in Reaper are specific to Reaper (and I use hardly any plugins at all).
Coming from Chris that's indeed bad news, because AD are very responsive to problems. Also they have a very independant outlook, not disimilar to Cockos, and it seems odd that Cockos are unwilling to work constructively with them to fix the issue.ariston wrote:And I know from Chris Randall that the good folks of Cockos are refusing to look into a particular graphics issue that afflicts AD plugs, because they say the blame is not theirs. That doesn't get them any points in my book.
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- KVRist
- 372 posts since 28 Oct, 2005 from Earth
With respect, it is a AD plugin bug and not a Reaper bug!ariston wrote:And I know from Chris Randall that the good folks of Cockos are refusing to look into a particular graphics issue that afflicts AD plugs, because they say the blame is not theirs. That doesn't get them any points in my book.
Just read this thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=270767
And AD is NOT responsive to problems, at least in my case. There was no help at all and it was not easy to get an simple answer by email.headquest wrote: Coming from Chris that's indeed bad news, because AD are very responsive to problems. Also they have a very independant outlook, not disimilar to Cockos, and it seems odd that Cockos are unwilling to work constructively with them to fix the issue.
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- KVRAF
- 24464 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Well, at least the bug has been found and is reproducible from Chris' side, so it will be fixed sooner or later.
That's a good thing
That's a good thing
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- KVRAF
- 3878 posts since 28 Jun, 2009 from Wherever I lay my hat
Funny, though, that I've yet to encounter this "AD bug" in FLStudio, Cubase, or Ableton, not to mention Cantabile and Chainer. I know that thread you linked (I actively participated in it), and I also know it doesn't really answer the question. Let's not call it a bug, then, but an issue. The fact remains, no matter what you call it.swindus wrote: With respect, it is a AD plugin bug and not a Reaper bug!
Just read this thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=270767
It's quite obvious to me that this is an issue with Reaper. It's not just AD plugins, either.
I've got no driver conflicts, btw, I update my drivers regularly, there is nothing wrong with my Nvidia 8800 GTS, and a fresh system install does nothing to improve the situation.