Heresy alert: You left REAPER and went to...

[koolkeys]

I've happily moved back from Cubase to Sonar, and still use many other hosts as well. So I'm of a very mixed opinion with Reaper.

Wow - now that suprises me, and I cant imagine doing that personally. But it illustrates how YMMV is so true.

Well, I've said it before, but getting rid of Cubase wasn't because it didn't click with me or that I didn't like it. There were other reasons that I think are for another time and place(I've told others privately, but don't want to go too far off the kilter here).

Personally I found Sonar so cluttered, a bit cranky in terms of stability, and a mess in terms of workflow. but I do different stuff from you. One of the things I am most on the lookout for is a programme that will bridge the gap between music production and notation. Sibelius is fantastic for score production, but most sequencers either don't do it at all (e.g. Live, Reaper, Record) or do it badly (e.g. Sonar).

IMO, Sonar is as stable as it's ever been. The most recent update especially has made a huge improvement. Also, on the 64-bit side, it has the most stable bit bridge of any app I've tried(which would be Sonar, Cubase, and Reaper- all extensively). This is a HUGE deal to me. And it integrates directly with jBridge if you need to, and can set your preference on a per-plug-in basis.

I used to find Sonar more clunky. However, I never really took the time to modify my buttons and track arrangements fully. But now, my workspace is very clean without too many extras sitting around the interface. Between that and hotkeys, I don't have too many problems. Still some annoyances, don't get me wrong. But even Cubase had it's share of them.

Also, I had a mixed opinion about the notation in Cubase. I liked it, but every time I used Finale and/or Pro Tools, I realized just how clunky the Cubase notation is. And that is the case with EVERY OTHER host as well, especially Sonar. I found myself never really using the notation in Cubase, and just using the piano roll for VST Expression.

Notation is a big part of my work, and Finale obviously fits the bill. But then there is the problem of integration. So I'm checking out Notion right now since it can be a Rewire host OR slave. I'll probably play parts into Notion while Rewired, then record that MIDI into the host and take it from there. I can also export an XML file from Notion to import into Finale to do fine tuning and layout. So I'm really hoping that Notion works well once I get some more time with it(about ten days left on my trial!). I think THAT may be the bridge that is needed.

For me the search for the perfect bridge goes on, but I think Cubase is probably as good as it gets right now (for somebody who both uses notation and records).

But this describes me as well. I think we are after the same thing, but we have both realized that the perfect solution doesn't yet exist. Again, holding out on the Notion solution. We'll see.

in terms of creativity, stability..., ... for straight music-making fun I'm totally hooked on Record/Reason now. Who'd have thought it 6 months ago?!

Ya know, Reason has always been a great brainstorming palette for me(though I still would rather load up Live or something). Record, I'm not sure about still. I need to try it on my new system with the larger monitor. Even using hotkeys, the interface bugs me. And some of the dumb implementations they have(like not being able to stretch audio without changing tempo) also drive me nuts. And the fact that I have to switch views to edit MIDI or comp, and I just haven't been able to enjoy it much.

Brent

[sys2074]

shhh!!....... I can hear them coming.....

If I really had to move to another host ... and I mean IF I HAD TO!! ... Then I would fu** Elvi.... I mean I would move to Live.

[ariston]

I just wanted to add something that I've noticed about Reaper... and Live. in Reaper, my midi recording has always seemed a little off - notes recorded too early or too late, and so on. I always thought it had something to do with how my playing had deteriorated, but that wasn't the case. Turns out that Live records my midi perfectly. I can't pinpoint it directly, and I can't be bothered to make detailed analyses about Reaper's midi recording glitches, but the fact remains that this particular problem has disappeard into thin air since I've been using Live. And no, I don't quantize what I play.

The workflow in midi editing is also a breeze; now I understand what people were talking about when griping about Reaper's midi shortcomings.

I use Reaper for mastering and recording multi-track audio now, but Live is my main workhorse. Great fun and inspirational to boot.

Heresy!

[fandango]

[EDIT - oh bollocks and bell-ends. this was supposed to go into the 8.5 thread...]

I absolutely love Sonar 8.5, feels like a properly rounded product now (albeit Score and some MIDI options). There's still one thing I find quite difficult in Sonar, and maybe some of the power users can help?

1. Is there no way to alter the length of an audio clip, such that the playback rate alters in proportion as well (i.e., no timestretching is applied, much like you would get in a conventional sampler, but the pitch alters)? It seems you can do this for individual slices inside a Groove Clip, but not for a single audio clip?

which leads onto

2. What is the safest way to 'tune' an audio clip that you have either manipulated via AudioSnap (but not bounced to clip) or stretched? It seems you have to do 2 destructive processes. First is to tune the clip via some algorithm from "Transpose...", and then timestretch, or vice versa. I wish it were possible to do 1 where the timestretching algorithm also takes tuning into account when it does it's bounced rendering.

[JoseC.]

[EDIT - oh bollocks and bell-ends. this was supposed to go into the 8.5 thread...]

I absolutely love Sonar 8.5, feels like a properly rounded product now (albeit Score and some MIDI options). There's still one thing I find quite difficult in Sonar, and maybe some of the power users can help?

1. Is there no way to alter the length of an audio clip, such that the playback rate alters in proportion as well (i.e., no timestretching is applied, much like you would get in a conventional sampler, but the pitch alters)? It seems you can do this for individual slices inside a Groove Clip, but not for a single audio clip?

which leads onto

2. What is the safest way to 'tune' an audio clip that you have either manipulated via AudioSnap (but not bounced to clip) or stretched? It seems you have to do 2 destructive processes. First is to tune the clip via some algorithm from "Transpose...", and then timestretch, or vice versa. I wish it were possible to do 1 where the timestretching algorithm also takes tuning into account when it does it's bounced rendering.

Ummm..Do you want to tune the clip, or do you want it to sound faster depending on its new length? I do not quite get what you want to achieve.

[fandango]

JoseC: I actually found a way to do it today.

1. Take a clip, slip edit the end so that it has about 100% more space at the end and "Bounce to clip".
2. Turn it into a Groove Clip.
3. Set slices to "None" and drag the Transient Sensitivity to 0 (so there is 1 slice that covers the whole sample)
4. Adjust Coarse/Fine pitch tuning value in the sample/loop editor.
5. "Bounce to clip"

In EnergyXT2, FL Studio, Reaper etc. you just adjust the pitch or playback rate and the sample lengthens/shortens accordingly. I could upload a short GIF anim, but hopefully this explains what I mean.

Anyway, I'm happy now!

[hibidy]

Hmmm, the midi timing comments are a bit troublesome. But I'm just in the opposite position. Looks like I'm jumping on the reaper bandwagon (well, maybe I'm just observe the parade from the stands :hihi")

[JoseC.]

JoseC: I actually found a way to do it today.

1. Take a clip, slip edit the end so that it has about 100% more space at the end and "Bounce to clip".
2. Turn it into a Groove Clip.
3. Set slices to "None" and drag the Transient Sensitivity to 0 (so there is 1 slice that covers the whole sample)
4. Adjust Coarse/Fine pitch tuning value in the sample/loop editor.
5. "Bounce to clip"

In EnergyXT2, FL Studio, Reaper etc. you just adjust the pitch or playback rate and the sample lengthens/shortens accordingly. I could upload a short GIF anim, but hopefully this explains what I mean.

Anyway, I'm happy now!

You can also just insert an instance of RXP and drag and drop the audio clip into it. If it is not a REX file you just get one slice that you can mangle to taste.

[Jed]

I just wanted to add something that I've noticed about Reaper... and Live. in Reaper, my midi recording has always seemed a little off - notes recorded too early or too late, and so on. I always thought it had something to do with how my playing had deteriorated, but that wasn't the case. Turns out that Live records my midi perfectly. I can't pinpoint it directly, and I can't be bothered to make detailed analyses about Reaper's midi recording glitches, but the fact remains that this particular problem has disappeard into thin air since I've been using Live. And no, I don't quantize what I play.

@ariston

I think this perceived midi timing issue has to do with whether or not Reaper is configured to take into account the latency of the midi input device.

Next time you record midi in reaper, try right clicking the track vu meter and checking the 'Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items' option.

Before I checked this I found that my midi notes were recording slightly too early, but with this enabled they are bang on.

Its kind of a 'record the timing that your ears hear' vs 'what you play with your fingers' mode. Live I think records what you hear, where as Reaper (without that option enabled) records what you play.

This makes sense to me because we tend to play ahead of the beat slightly when playing our midi keyboards (to combat the latency of the input devices and vsti's so that what our ears hear is in time with the rest of the track as it plays). That reaper setting simply subtracts the latency timing from what you play before recording it into a track.

Of course I could be totally off the pace but it worked for me!

Cheers
Jed

[saldiamond]

using 'Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items' definitely improved the timing issue for me.

i was having the same issue as above but now the timing is spot on.

err, the recorded midi is spot on the way i played it even though my timing might be off.

[jbone1313]

Reaper is a fantastic program. However, the MIDI timing issue has caused me to go back to Live. You can get the MIDI timing pretty close with the above suggestions, but try recording some MIDI loops. Good luck with that.

Live's MIDI is rock solid. You have to be aware that Live records what you hear, not what you play. (There is a work around for the latter if you need that.)

The Reaper devs need to take a look at what's wrong with their loop recording. I've brought this up on their forum, but it didn't really get anywhere.

[JoseC.]

1. Is there no way to alter the length of an audio clip, such that the playback rate alters in proportion as well (i.e., no timestretching is applied, much like you would get in a conventional sampler, but the pitch alters)? It seems you can do this for individual slices inside a Groove Clip, but not for a single audio clip?

I just found out exactly how to do that. Just hold CTL while you stretch the clip. It will slow down or get faster as you make it longer or shorter. Duh.

[fandango]

1. Is there no way to alter the length of an audio clip, such that the playback rate alters in proportion as well (i.e., no timestretching is applied, much like you would get in a conventional sampler, but the pitch alters)? It seems you can do this for individual slices inside a Groove Clip, but not for a single audio clip?

I just found out exactly how to do that. Just hold CTL while you stretch the clip. It will slow down or get faster as you make it longer or shorter. Duh.

Nope, that applies Timestretching algorithms in an attempt to preserve the pitch (which is not what I want).

i.e., imagine dragging a clip to 200%, such that the resultant pitch on playback will be an octave lower.

I think we've ended up discussing this a bit more than it's worth, tbh...

[JoseC.]

@ariston

I think this perceived midi timing issue has to do with whether or not Reaper is configured to take into account the latency of the midi input device.

This is not a "perceived" issue. It is very real.

I have tried this using a hardware sequencer synced to Reaper, recording its MIDI output. No matter how you configure the output that sends clock to the sequencer (Low latency/Low Precision or not, with or without offset), Reaper adds a latency of 30 ms AND ADDS on top of that a jitter of up to 10 ms, while tests with Sonar add NO latency and jitter stays in the 1.5-2.5 ms range with the same audio buffer latency (12.5ms).

No good, IMO.

[JoseC.]

Nope, that applies Timestretching algorithms in an attempt to preserve the pitch (which is not what I want).

i.e., imagine dragging a clip to 200%, such that the resultant pitch on playback will be an octave lower.

I think we've ended up discussing this a bit more than it's worth, tbh...

You are right, it applies timestretching, my fault.