Question on side-chaining tutorial for Sonar

[erichodge]

Bitbridge is probably the issue (We haven't checked it but I would not count on it). It looks like you are a good candidate to test our latest internal 64-bit release... Will PM you a link to our x64 release candidate shortly.

ok, good progress. i can now insert the DX as a soft synth (in demo mode).

inputs on a midi track can be routed from the Dynamics plug.

i inserted the DX gain plug as a soft synth on the master bus, but there are no settings to input GainL/GainR (just one gain setting) which makes sense, because there is only 1 fader. i set this to 54 (to match gain 1 in the dynamics output routing). i set the settings on the same midi track above to route output to the gain plug.

i import audio into the track where the dynamics plug is entered. i press play, tweak the dynamics plug to compress, but i see no modulation on the gain plug.

definitely progress, but there is still a gap.

thank you very much for your help.

[Blue Cat Audio]

Have you checked "Enable MIDI Output" for the Dynamics plug-in in the Synth Rack View as explained above in this thread (that's the step we often miss...)? In addition to setting the right MIDI channel and CC numbers, have you also checked the "enable" button for the parameters?

Sometimes it is also necessary to force MIDI monitoring on the track to get messages go thru while playing.

BTW we are working on another tutorial for Snoar 6 and above: you now also use groups in order to link parameters together (it's a bit easier than working with MIDI, especially the first time ). More about that soon.

[erichodge]

Have you checked "Enable MIDI Output" for the Dynamics plug-in in the Synth Rack View as explained above in this thread (that's the step we often miss...)? In addition to setting the right MIDI channel and CC numbers, have you also checked the "enable" button for the parameters?

Sometimes it is also necessary to force MIDI monitoring on the track to get messages go thru while playing.

BTW we are working on another tutorial for Snoar 6 and above: you now also use groups in order to link parameters together (it's a bit easier than working with MIDI, especially the first time ). More about that soon.

i have done these things.

also, as a point of note, in return for you helping me out here, i will write your tutorial for Sonar.

[erichodge]

Have you checked "Enable MIDI Output" for the Dynamics plug-in in the Synth Rack View as explained above in this thread (that's the step we often miss...)? In addition to setting the right MIDI channel and CC numbers, have you also checked the "enable" button for the parameters?

Sometimes it is also necessary to force MIDI monitoring on the track to get messages go thru while playing.

BTW we are working on another tutorial for Snoar 6 and above: you now also use groups in order to link parameters together (it's a bit easier than working with MIDI, especially the first time ). More about that soon.

did i lose you here? definitely keen to get this working properly, and your help has been immeasurable. as i said, if we get this working, i will happily write your sonar tutorial.

[Blue Cat Audio]

NOt lost but definitely scratching my head to see where I am missing something. Will replay the entire scenario again with the latest version of Sonar and check where something may be misconfigurated. Will get back to you asap!

[Blue Cat Audio]

Tried over and over again and it keeps working here... . (but we don't have 8.5 setup yet - many customers of our do though, so I don't think this is the issue)

Let's do a sanity check:
- you are using DirectX version of Blue Cat's dynamics AND Blue Cat's Gain.
- Dynamics plug-in: MIDI output enabled and configured to channel 1 / CC 51 for parameter "Total Gain (1)"
- Dynamics plug-in setup to compress (maybe put a very low threshold, like -40 dB and infinite gain, just to make sure it will actually compress)
- In synth Rack view, Dynamics Plug-in MIDI output enabled.
- MIDI track configured to route Dynamics Plug-in MIDI Omni to Gain Plug-in (Channel 'None')
- Gain(Stereo) plug-in: MIDI input enabled and configured to channel 0 (or 1) / CC 51 for parameter "Gain"

If everything above is ok, your setup should be fine .

Questions now:
- When you hit play, is the Dynamics plug-in really compressing? (red comp meters moving on the right of the graph will tell you). If not, push it harder (if no comp occurs, you won't see the gain plug-in moving)
- If the plug-in is now compressing, can you see MIDI events going thru the MIDI track? (the activity meter on the right of the MIDI track should be blue and moving, as shown below)



Thanks for your patience. We'll find out the issue!

[erichodge]

Tried over and over again and it keeps working here... . (but we don't have 8.5 setup yet - many customers of our do though, so I don't think this is the issue)

Let's do a sanity check:
- you are using DirectX version of Blue Cat's dynamics AND Blue Cat's Gain.
- Dynamics plug-in: MIDI output enabled and configured to channel 1 / CC 51 for parameter "Total Gain (1)"
- Dynamics plug-in setup to compress (maybe put a very low threshold, like -40 dB and infinite gain, just to make sure it will actually compress)
- In synth Rack view, Dynamics Plug-in MIDI output enabled.
- MIDI track configured to route Dynamics Plug-in MIDI Omni to Gain Plug-in (Channel 'None')
- Gain(Stereo) plug-in: MIDI input enabled and configured to channel 0 (or 1) / CC 51 for parameter "Gain"

If everything above is ok, your setup should be fine .

Questions now:
- When you hit play, is the Dynamics plug-in really compressing? (red comp meters moving on the right of the graph will tell you). If not, push it harder (if no comp occurs, you won't see the gain plug-in moving)
- If the plug-in is now compressing, can you see MIDI events going thru the MIDI track? (the activity meter on the right of the MIDI track should be blue and moving, as shown below)



Thanks for your patience. We'll find out the issue!

ok, thank you very much for responding. here we go.

firstly, here is a screenshot displaying my setup:



you can see i have an audio track with the DX dynamics plug inserted as a soft synth. midi output is enabled, and MIDI Outputs Gain 1 and Gain 2 are set to 1, 51 and 1, 52 respectively.

one note, for some reason, when i add the DX dynamics synth, it's indicating that i'm running in demo mode (even though i've paid for the app).

then, i've inserted the DX gain plug as a soft synth on the master out. i've configered MIDI Inputs Gain to 0, 51 (there appears to be no Gain 1/Gain 2, despite adding the stereo gain plug).

in the midi track 2, as you can see, i have configured the input to be the dynamics plug (omni) and the output to be the gain plug.

i have then set dynamics to DEFINITELY compress (i also played with the wet/dry, which isn't displayed here).

still no movement on the gain plug faders.

there has to be one little piece i am missing here.

thanks again for your help.

[erichodge]

btw, you'll have to open that image i posted in it's own tab to view the entire thing.

[erichodge]

another question about this. say i want to use this for NYC compression, as described in the tutorial. generally, what i would do is put the sidechainable compressor on my pre-master bus, side chain in 1 or two relevant kick drums which would duck the mix, and then route the entire output to the master bus.

if this were my setup, where would i put the dynamics plug and the gain plug?

i would assume dynamics on the pre-master, and gain on the master, but will gain actually output audio, or is it just routing the sidechain back to the dynamics plug?

[Blue Cat Audio]

Thanks for the screenshot, it's definitely helpful. Did the same configuration in Sonar 8 and there is no issue. I can see your plug-in indeed compresses .

From what I can see in your screenshot, MIDI is properly generated by the Dynamics plug-in. So the problem is located either in Sonar's MIDI routing or at the arrival of events in the Gain plug-in.

Sorry to ask for another experiment (need to get a 8.5 copy asap), but can you try the following:
1. Move the Gain plugin to another audio track than Master - this will check if it's not an issue with MIDI routing on master channel
2. When Sonar is playing and compression is occuring, open the Gain plug-in preset settings window and click on "Learn" for the gain parameter. This way we'll see if any event make it into the gain plug-in. Can you post a screenshot of it?

About NY compression, I think you got it right. The gain plug-in is just a plug-in that controls the gain of incoming audio signal. The side chain just consists in controlling the gain plug-in with the Dynamics plug-in. Only control data is communicated between the two plug-in. Audio stays on its track.

You have the demo version because that's what we sent you for testing (x64 version). Did not notice you were a customer yet . Will send you a non limited beta soon when we have a build.

[erichodge]

Thanks for the screenshot, it's definitely helpful. Did the same configuration in Sonar 8 and there is no issue. I can see your plug-in indeed compresses .

From what I can see in your screenshot, MIDI is properly generated by the Dynamics plug-in. So the problem is located either in Sonar's MIDI routing or at the arrival of events in the Gain plug-in.

Sorry to ask for another experiment (need to get a 8.5 copy asap), but can you try the following:
1. Move the Gain plugin to another audio track than Master - this will check if it's not an issue with MIDI routing on master channel
2. When Sonar is playing and compression is occuring, open the Gain plug-in preset settings window and click on "Learn" for the gain parameter. This way we'll see if any event make it into the gain plug-in. Can you post a screenshot of it?

About NY compression, I think you got it right. The gain plug-in is just a plug-in that controls the gain of incoming audio signal. The side chain just consists in controlling the gain plug-in with the Dynamics plug-in. Only control data is communicated between the two plug-in. Audio stays on its track.

You have the demo version because that's what we sent you for testing (x64 version). Did not notice you were a customer yet . Will send you a non limited beta soon when we have a build.

ok, i've got it working now!!!!

essentially, the only change i made was to insert the "Stereo Gain" plug and not the "Gain (Stereo)" plug. no idea what the difference is, or how i ended up with those both installed.

anyway, sounds REALLY good!! i am very excited.

unfortunately, i can't really use it until i get the beta

i will keep my eyes peeled for the beta, and i will write up sonar instructions, although they are very similar to what you have already written. since i am a sonar nut, though, i think i can be very thorough for sonar people.

cheers and thanks so much!

-eric

[Blue Cat Audio]

Looks odd, but I am glad you sorted things out! Just sent the link for the non-demo version so that you can (at last!) go back to work .

We'd be of course interested in a tutorial. On our side we are working on a tutorial using automation groups (it's less flexible but faster to setup and also lets you control mixer params such as balance, effect send etc.)