Volume control via MIDI cc 7 in Zebra

[JackD]

I've tied MIDI cc #7 to the master volume control labeled Output. In many of the presets (including my own), Output is a small value while Master is often a much larger value. The problem comes when trying to control the overall volume with MIDI messages. MIDI cc 7 modulates the full range of Output, instead of zero to where Output is set in the preset. What happens is, I end up controling volume with only about 4 bits of resolution which isn't much.

I bring this up, just to see what other people are doing. Are you controling Master via MIDI cc 7, or not using MIDI volume control at all, prefering to control the rendered audio volume? I'm using Sonar, and I'm sure what DAW/host you are using would have some influence on how you do it.

[JackD]

I've done some more thinking on the above. If you control Output via MIDI, then you have to take into account the range of Output, which is 0 to 200. Sending a volume cc message of 127 will change Output to 200, and there is no way to alter this, so you must adjust for it. It makes sense to me to pick a value just under 127, and call it 0 db and adjust Master (and maybe Return 1 and 2) for it. After playing around with the numbers, I picked a value of 116 (MIDI cc#7, data = 116) as 0db. 116 should give me some room to push the signal over the 'redline' of 0 db, but not give up too much in resolution in range of useable volume before redline. Sending #116 equates to a value of 184.13, on Output.

So, as I definitely don't want to change all my presets, I do have some kind of effective comprimise. All the presets in my MIDI Programs folder are copies of original presets, with slight tweeks, so this makes them good candidates for change (a good time to edit in author's names too). I'm going thru all 128 presets in MIDI programs folder and modifing the output levels. I believe this is called gain staging. I first play the preset and then adjust the Output parameter for 184. Then I have to lower Master (and maybe Return 1 and 2) so I'm not clipping the signal. I then adjust Master plus returns to where I'm just clipping it and then back it off a hair. Finally I play with sending the full range of MIDI cc #7, 0 to 127, and listen and watch the meters. This seems to work pretty well so far.

I'm a bit curious about no one replying to this thread so far, though there have been many readers. I don't have any way to get feedback other than writing on forums like KVR, so at this point I kind of wonder if I'm not just 'blowing smoke rings', or doing something wrong with Zebra internal gain staging. I don't think so though.

[Urs]

Hmmm... I must admit I havn't given this much thought yet.

The DAWs I use usually react on MIDI Volume all by themselves, adjusting the track level. I can see however that not all hosts may work like that, hence it may be a point to think about (and while we're at it, also adding an option for proper usage of the expression controller). I could imagine that future versions will have a panel with options for these issues...

Cheers,

Urs

[fas1piano]

in brainspawn forte i have put a fader (sonalksis free G) behind zebra, which i control by hardware fader or pedal (but free G is not smoothed) - so i can compensate for the different levels of presets in zebra. generally all of them are much too loud, compared to e.g. a dynamic piano sample library.

otherwise, have mapped one of the XYs to expression pedal and a crossfader for additional control stuff. of course, i need to adjust patches so that this makes sense.

[pdxindy]

I've tied MIDI cc #7 to the master volume control labeled Output. In many of the presets (including my own), Output is a small value while Master is often a much larger value. The problem comes when trying to control the overall volume with MIDI messages. MIDI cc 7 modulates the full range of Output, instead of zero to where Output is set in the preset. What happens is, I end up controling volume with only about 4 bits of resolution which isn't much.

I bring this up, just to see what other people are doing. Are you controling Master via MIDI cc 7, or not using MIDI volume control at all, prefering to control the rendered audio volume? I'm using Sonar, and I'm sure what DAW/host you are using would have some influence on how you do it.

What circumstances are you trying to use cc#7 this way?

Are you talking about controlling patch volume while you play? or for automating volume after the fact to make a fade out or some such?

For live playing, I often use the modwheel or expression pedal or for some swells aftertouch to control the volume of the oscillators themselves. Depends on situation.

Using Output to control volume, you are then also controlling the level of say delay and reverb. Sometimes one might want that, but mostly for playing expressive sounds (wind, strings, brassy etc) I prefer controlling it before the effects. I like the resultant sound better. Controlling the osc volume gives the most control because you can control each osc, comb module etc individually.

I also use the individual channel volume which is also pre effects. That is convenient for a channel with 3 osc to modulate all 3 with one quick edit.

For things like fade outs or automation, I control the rendered audio after Zebra...

[JackD]

What circumstances are you trying to use cc#7 this way?

I use Zebra strictly in my home studio, in Sonar8P. I mouse in much of my data, and use cc7 to set levels in different parts of the tune and do some fades. I'm doing a lot of my 'mixing', long before I render to audio. If I can't get a smooth fade, I wait, and do the fades on the audio. But setting levels via MIDI helps me hear it better, as I compose.

For live playing, I often use the modwheel or expression pedal or for some swells aftertouch to control the volume of the oscillators themselves. Depends on situation.

Using Output to control volume, you are then also controlling the level of say delay and reverb. Sometimes one might want that, but mostly for playing expressive sounds (wind, strings, brassy etc) I prefer controlling it before the effects. I like the resultant sound better. Controlling the osc volume gives the most control because you can control each osc, comb module etc individually.

I also use the individual channel volume which is also pre effects. That is convenient for a channel with 3 osc to modulate all 3 with one quick edit.

For things like fade outs or automation, I control the rendered audio after Zebra...

This is the kind of info, I was asking for in the first post, are people using MIDI volume control, or what(?). I'm often use other plugins for reverb and delay, unless the effect is an integral part of the presets' sound. Thanks for the food for thought.